1. Hooker
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    Hooker New Member

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    Cocaine-like poison (Powder)

    Discussion in 'Research' started by Hooker, May 15, 2012.

    Hi Guys,
    I`m trying to track down a fast acting powder poison that could be mistaken for cocaine (works when snorted, I can also work with it if it needs to be injected). I`ve got strychinine, it fits the bill, it`s a white powder and massively deadly; it`s also available in the third world as a rodenticide/animal control product. The problem that I have with it is that it is far too commonly used in literature, would I be mistaken to say that it is a cliche poison (I`d actually appreciate input about this as well)?

    Anyway, if anyone can think of a fast acting (under 30 minutes) powder poison (it doesn`t have to be white) I would be really thankful. I have scoured the web for the past week looking for something. The only thing is that death has to be pretty certain, at least as certain as strychinine.

    Thanks again,
    Best.
     
  2. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Cocaine with a small amount of ricin blended in. Unbelievably toxic.
     
  3. C.B Harrington
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    C.B Harrington Member

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    Well, so much for doing lines with Cogito in the bathroom at Dorsia.
     
  4. dave_c
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    dave_c Active Member

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    how about pure cocaine. "cut" cocaine is dangerous but when absolutely pure is a pretty fast and painful way to go.
     
  5. Hooker
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    Hooker New Member

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    I thought about the pure cocaine idea but there are two issues with this:

    1. My research shows that pure cocaine is actually safer than the "cut" street cocaine, it`s just a matter of adjusting your dose. If you got have different research please post a link I can use the info :).

    2. Although the medium of my characters death has to be cocaine (or heroine, or injected cociane, etc.) the death has to clearly be suspicious. I was originally gonna lace the coke with warfarin and have the guy bleed out, but research shows that would take from several hours to several days depending on the dose.

    :).
     
  6. Hooker
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    Hooker New Member

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    Thanks for the reply :) I did some cursory research in Wikipedia and the main problems with ricin are that it`s effects are due to it`s intereference with protein synthesis, thus it`s takes several hours to a day to manifest and death occurs 3-5 days after initital exposure, I need something that works under an hour. I guess that weaponized ricin would be far more lethal but in my story world that is unlikely to be found, the murderer is your average, corrupt, thrid world cop.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricin

    BTW: Ive been reading some of your posts throughout the forum, you know a LOT about murder :).
     
  7. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I only know murder from research, and you'll never prove otherwise.

    Also, I used to be a research chemist, and served for a while as the Safety Officer for the lab.

    Ricin is a castor bean component. A cop MIGHT have found some ricin collected by a terrorist.
     
  8. Hooker
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    Hooker New Member

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    Do you guys think strychnine is a cliche poison, that it has been overdone and a reader would say, "man, couldn`t they think of something else?"

    Thanks :).
     
  9. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    A couple hundred milligrams of strychnine would be a decently fatal dose, but it is not fast. Symptoms build over a couple hours until respiratory collapse occurs, giving plenty of time to name the killer, or to at least provide a good lead.

    On the other hand, a couple hundred milligrams is quite a bit. If it were not all absorbed (e.g. sneezed out immediately) the victim might not receive a safely fatal exposure.
     
  10. dave_c
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    dave_c Active Member

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    i don't know if cliché is the right word but i certainly think it is over used (not literally). I think the reason for it being so popular is that it is available in large quantities making it relatively untraceable.

    i think i may have inadvertently fed you some miss information. i honestly don't know where i heard that uncut was toxic. sorry. it may have been a James Bond film :D

    on the other hand a little Googling shows that if you don't reduce your intake when using pure you can very easily overdose. possibly where my error originated. but i don't suppose that helps too much as you want the death to be suspicious.

    adding any number of things would make cocaine dangerous (er) i mean you throw some gold dust in there and it will kill (eventually)

    here is a thought that just popped into my head though. what about a chemical which expands when it gets wet.

    person snorts the powder, it expands in their throat lungs and suffocates them. quick death, very clearly suspicious, though i dont know a specific chemical that would do that you could always create one :)
     
  11. Skodt
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    Skodt Member

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    What about a venom? Cociane can be wet or dry depending on the cut of the substance. Having dried the cocaine in a snake venom as such would cause the dose to be lethal. Since this is a third world country I am sure pest control is always needed, and a cop would maybe double duty as that control. So a strong dose of Venom dried onto the cocaine and then respitory failure or heart failure. A tox screening would show the venom, or a quick screening of left over cocaine residue.
     
  12. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Yes, well, one of the later James Bond films also asserted that weapons grade plutonium was safe to hold in your hand.

    Doubtful.
     
  13. Hooker
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    Hooker New Member

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    I think another way to find my toxin would be to look at what toxins are used in cocaine manufacture. I think it is feasible that a narcotics cop in a production country would have access to these chemicals. I`m assuming that if you snort cocaine dried in pure sulphuric acid you die pretty quick? I will look into this and get back to you guys, any more ideas though are very welcome.

    :).
     
  14. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    No, sulphuric acid cannot be dried to a powder. As you concentrate it, it becomes a thick, oily liquid. concentrate it further, it becomes fuming sulphuric acid. The fumes are sulphur trioxide, which combines with moisture in the air on on surfaces, becoming more sulphuric acid.

    Very nasty, but it could not be "concealed" in cocaine.
     
  15. Hooker
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    Hooker New Member

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    I think I found my poison, it comes as a rat posion, is banned everywhere, but the Chinese keep exporting it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetramethylenedisulfotetramine

    Do you guys think this looks decent?

    @Cogito: Supposedly a deadly dose for adults is 7-10 milligrams which can be ingested or insulfated. Apparently concentrations of this toxin in the rat poison are 6.4% to 13.8% by weight (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5210a4.htm). Assuming a heavy user of cocaine did half a gram in one sitting I can think of two scenarios:

    1. The entire dose is replaced by rat posion with the toxin at the concentration specified, I assume that would be deadly, would that be correct?

    2. Assuming the dose of posion was blended with the cocaine, how many grams of posion at the concentration specified would be deadly?

    I appreciate your input on this, I am drawing on your lab experience as I don`t want to do some intuitive math and look like an idiot later on.

    Finally, I get that this thing is a white powder, I`m assuming it could pass for cocaine with an addict or maybe pass as blended with cocaine, I`m not sure what you think.

    Thanks :).
     
  16. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Because it is soluble in DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide), you have another poisoning scenario open to you. DMSO can be absorbed through the skin directly into the bloodstream, along with materials dissolved in it. It also does not evaporate quickly, so a surface "painted" with it could remain wet for a while. The victim may notice a garlic-like flavor in the mouth after coming in contact with DMSO.

    Furthermore, the cocaine itself remains clean.

    Does your victim wear contact lenses?
     
  17. Hooker
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    Hooker New Member

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    When you say "it", do you mean the TET?

    If that is the case it is very cool that the cocaine remains "clean". Is DMSO widely available?

    Also, still curious on the dosing questions I had above... :). Thanks for the lead, I will look into DMSO right now.

    Best :).

    PS: I don`t think contact lenses would be beliveable in my sotry world but a compromise could be made for a compelling reason. If you are going where I think you are going with the contact lense-DSMO thing I think it wouldn`t fit my story too well.
     
  18. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    What I was thinking was inside the contact lens case. When I put my contacts in each morning, I dip my finger into the case to retrieve the lens. I rinse the lens with saline, put the contact in my eye, and dump the solution from the case.

    If the poison were in the case, it would be absorbed through the finger, and the evidence would go down the drain when the fluid was dumped from the case. Meanwhile, the victim keeps his appointment with death.

    The dosage would be easy, if a couple milligrams of TET are fatal. Just dissolve a couple grams of it in a few ml of DMSO.

    Of course, murder rarely goes smoothly, so you can complicate life considerably for your killer cop.
     
  19. Hooker
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    Hooker New Member

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    Thanks for the pointer Cogito, I will keep that in mind. I really like it for my sequel.

    For now however I think Im just goin to cut .25 grams of the poison with .25 grams of cocaine and go from there; according to my math that shoulod be more than lethal. In the particular case of my novel it`s a frame job so the subtelty of the delivery system you suggest actually goes against my intent. I need the guy who is framed to look as guilty as possible and to have access to the poison himself.

    I appreciate your pointers, I really wouldn`t have figured this out without you guys :).

    Best.
     
  20. indy5live
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    indy5live Active Member

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    Mushrooms can be crushed into a pretty fine powder and there are plenty of mushrooms in this world that cause all kind of unique symptoms, including death if ingested or injected.
     
  21. Leonardo Pisano
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    Leonardo Pisano Active Member

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    There are flying some poison guides around, including symptoms, etc. Wld it be essential that the death looks like natural, or at least doesn't point to a killing?
    I was thinking some plants like aconitum (monkshood), but I wld need to dive in deeper to identify a suitable one. Also the mushroom hint by Indy is a good one.
     
  22. Hooker
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    Hooker New Member

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    The death needs to look like foul play. I appreciate your input but I think I have found my poison, if you could post some links to a couple of those poison guides, I think that would be helpful though :).

    Best.
     
  23. Adept
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    Adept New Member

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    Just one thing on a comment from earlier - you're going to mix 0.25g of poison with equal amount of cocaine. Is the murderee going to take the entire half a gram as one line? Otherwise I think the first line is going to really, really hurt and tip him/her off that there's something wrong with the cocaine. Of course to an addict this may not matter...
     
  24. Hooker
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    Hooker New Member

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    What would more or less be the wieght in grams of your average line of cocaine? I was thinking that half a gram would be about right but I may be very off base here :).
     
  25. Adept
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    I think you could probably expect to get somewhere between 5-10 lines from a gram. Can be more or less, it would depend how cut it was/what the situation was.

    That's not to say that your character wouldn't rack up a line at half a gram (I've been thinking about this overnight!) - if he was getting cut cocaine that was of really low quality he may have become used to taking massive lines. Also if he's a serious coke-head perhaps he needs that much to get his hit?

    It might be worth your while getting a gram of bicarbonate of soda or something similar, getting out a credit card, cutting it up into lines and then looking at it and thinking "how would that feel if I tried to get it up my nose?". Just don't let your mum/girlfriend catch you, she'll never buy your excuse!
     

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