Common mistakes writers make about horses.

Discussion in 'Research' started by katreya, Jan 19, 2014.

  1. theamorset

    theamorset Member

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    That is terrible country. Terrible. Especially the first third and the last third. I wouldn't try to take that trip by horseback. You need a mountain goat. That area is for mountain climbers.

    Still, say you could find a route that followed valleys and rivers. I'd still want a Bactrian camel instead of a horse....

    It's 282 hours to walk it, it's 811 some miles, google uses around 3mph for walking, supposedly with some allowance for terrain. That's about right allowing for stops to feeding, resting, repair gear, weather, etc. Say it's with one horse, and you want the horse to be alive and use-able at the end of this. With a 3 days on, 1 day off, 2 days on, one day off schedule, 10 hours a day (that's a lot), it's 150 miles a week, 5 1/2 weeks.
     
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  2. Malisky

    Malisky Malkatorean Contributor

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    Thanks. Good to know that I was not completely off estimating.
     
  3. theamorset

    theamorset Member

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    Ho would you explain away the considerable problems with doing so? Why is it so important that the MC ride a horse through there?
     
  4. Malisky

    Malisky Malkatorean Contributor

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    It's based on around 1189 A.D. There were no other means of transportation back then if you wanted to travel fast. (Maybe some parts of the traveling was done by the river, by boat). I won't be covering in detail the specific journey, since it's one that my characters had to cover in order to track somebody down and my scene begins from the moment they are about to face him. But as an intro I want to briefly explain how they got there and why, since it's the first time that one of my characters traveled so far, for so long and I want to later on describe in what way such an experience affected him. That's why I estimated a couple of weeks more. Because of course they didn't travel in a straight line and there might have been some false trails they followed until they got there.
     
  5. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Just to keep things interesting - I agree with a lot of @theamorset's long post, but other parts of it don't match my experience. I think this is the main reason there's so much debate and dissension about the best way to portray horses - because there's not just one way!

    For example - I don't have anywhere near @theamorset's longevity or apparent breadth of experience, but I've worked with three mares immediately after foaling, and none of them were as aggressive and distrustful as he's described. Yes, the mares would shift around to get between me and the foal (and I tried to stay out of their area as much as possible, of course) but there were no bared teeth or lunges, and the first vet visits came without serious trauma or wrestling with anyone.

    So, my sample size is much smaller than @theamorset's, which means that I can accept that in general terms maybe things are the way he described them. But there are, apparently, exceptions. If I wrote a book based on my experiences he'd think I got it wrong, and if he wrote a book based on his, I'd think he'd got it wrong, even though both of us could be right.
     
  6. Caveriver

    Caveriver Active Member

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    When I was wrangling for a living, I often spent eight to nine hours a day in the saddle. This was moderate terrain (creeks, lots of hills, very little "open" riding, but all on cut trails) with a mixture of all gaits/speeds. The horses were no specific breed, but they were not pampered stall ponies... they lived on pasture of the same terrain year-round, so you might say they were used to it. This was about a twelve-mile ride, but supervising guests with varying experience. With more experienced riders, it could be done in six.

    The longest ride I ever did out there was seventeen miles in nine hours- over extremely wild and uncut terrain. I can tell you, that was a LONG day, for both humans and horses. It certainly was not something I would have wanted to do with a horse I didn't fully trust.
     
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  7. theamorset

    theamorset Member

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    But that's the thing. I think they would have hiked part way, ridden and packed camels part way, ridden horses part way, and gone on a boat on the big river part way.

    Not a couple weeks, 5 1/2 weeks, assuming you found a valley trail and an extensive network of passes.
     
  8. Malisky

    Malisky Malkatorean Contributor

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    Was it 9 hours straight? How many breaks would you normally take and for how much time if you were in a hurry? How did you feel after that trip ended? Physically and mentally.
     
  9. Malisky

    Malisky Malkatorean Contributor

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    I meant I assumed 2 months (9 weeks), which add up to 3 and a half weeks more than 5 and a half. Not a couple. My bad vocab. I use horses because I think that they travel faster. I'm not sure if they used camels in china in the southern Song dynasty. Didn't even think of them. Maybe I should research it.
     
  10. theamorset

    theamorset Member

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    That first ride was a very brief ride - one always rides a very different pace on shorter rides. But even at that, you went only 2 miles an hour.

    17 miles in 9 hours - that is not even 2 miles an hour. And that's only one day.

    And again, riding ONE DAY is a lot different than taking a 1352 K trip that lasts 5 1/2 weeks in far, far worse country. You have to pace your horse all the way.

    The Shaanxi is a country mountain climbers love for all its VERTICAL CLIFFS.

    If I had to track someone through that country, time would be of the essence. I'd take advantage of local guides, and I'd spread the bakshi around very freely, to get the information I needed. I'd keep changing my mode of transportation every time the terrain changed. I would NEVER run someone else down if I didn't. I'd be climbing, hiking, riding and packing camel, riding horses down into the valley, and I'd get on the boat. That's how people did it in those days. They adapted to the terrain.

    In fact, I'd look at how he'd be most likely to go, which is to go down to Wu Han and take the river all the way over to Wu Hu. It's the Yangtze.

    Today that area of the river is a hot cruise ship route. Back then I believe they would have been at least 3 major portages where today there are dams. Not easy but faster than going across country.
     
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  11. theamorset

    theamorset Member

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    I've taken many trips like that over the years. You're tired, and it hurts to pee, bad. That part of you is rubbed raw. When you get off, your legs feel like they're dead - if you've ridden a long time, you can't get off and walk. If you're hurrying, you have a lot of raw spots.

    Many years ago, I was 15. I took a trip up Devil's Gulch near Boulder, Colorado. We flew - I was galloping and the other person was on a single footer(racking horse). A horse can't do that for hours and hours and hours. They just can't keep up that pace. They can't do that all day. Those horses were blown after 25 or 30 minutes.

    We took another trip up the Wind River Range in Wyoming when I was 17. We were in Elk country the whole way. At one point we were riding along a ROAD, but the road was made by elk. It was a good 30 feet wide, stripped clean. We were out from sunup to sundown, about 18 hrs. When we stopped to eat lunch, the guide hobbled the horses. They all galloped - and I mean galloped - with the hobbles on. So we spent a few hours trailing them and catching them.

    And another time, I went trail riding at Big Bear Lake by myself, and got - well - 'lost'. They told me to turn around when I could just see the corner of Arrowhead Lake. By the time that horse stopped running, Lake Arrowhead looked like a tiny speck at the bottom of the mountain, LOL. I was out there a lot longer than I planned to be. I had to bush whack my way along til I found a forest road, and then when I finally found a truck, the men with the truck all leaped in it and drove away like mad when they saw me. I had to gallop along side the truck and yell to get them to stop. They were poaching, and thought I was a ranger. I just wanted to find out how to get home, LOL.

    And then we did horse camping, where we'd stay at a camp for some days, and go out and ride a different trail, all day, in various national parks.

    If the person was military, he'd be spending much of his day in the saddle, shooting a bow or spear, practicing fighting techniques in the saddle, hunting. He wouldn't fare so badly on a long trip. But if the person wasn't in the saddle many hours a day already, well. Like I said. You can't pee without screaming, LOL.

    At the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, the students used to hold little competitions. Who ever had the most blood on his legs at the end of the day, won. Riding for hours at active gaits, isn't easy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2016
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  12. Caveriver

    Caveriver Active Member

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    As I said, we were toting inexperienced guests. So there's talking, smoozing, lunch... When done with decent riders, we could do it in six, and that wasn't even pushing it. Of course riding ONE DAY is different than a journey, but also as I said, I rode every day, without fail. Even on the tame days, it was six miles at a snail's pace, packing twelve rookies. Not challenging riding, to say the least, but it was year-round, in all weather.

    Not 9 hours straight with rookies- a lot of poking along, looking at the scenery, and a break for lunch, with trotting and some cantering/galloping mixed in when the terrain called for it. For an experienced rider, that was a fun ride, but not especially strenuous (unless they were new- until you've done that kind of thing three or four times and shaped up, you're going to be hurting). When we did it without guests, we covered it in about six- and that was with goofing off in the creek, and stopping to eat lunch.

    Now, after that seventeen miles through Missouri backwoods... I learned some things about myself that day. I don't know much about China, but I wouldn't necessarily write off the backwoods of the Ozarks either. There were several places we had to get down and lead the horses, just because it was far too steep for them to navigate packing us.

    For some perspective: we used these horses every day of the week, packing up to 260 lbs of dead weight (which, is exactly what a inexperienced rider is) for six months. They were grained in the morning (varied amounts, depending on the animal) covered anywhere between six miles to twelve (harder riding) in a day, and turned out on grass all night. By the time they were due to rotate out for "vacation," after six months, they were usually cranky, tired, and ready for a break, but they were by no means about to keel over.

    Worst saddle-soreness I've ever had from "trail" riding was the sore tailbone and achy knees. Sometimes your toes go numb from bracing in the stirrups on the rough stuff. Also, riding in COLD weather can be a miserable experience! There is almost no way to keep your feet warm. It also makes the horses jumpy- they tend to like it colder- and the people more sluggish= hello accidents.

    If your characters are traveling over precut terrain, on horses they trust, who are fit an healthy from the outset, I would say you could reasonably expect them to cover fifteen to twenty miles day without risking anything. Then take into account obstacles, lack of trails, detours, weather, etc. Any one, or combinations of these is going to slow you down significantly. Horses aren't always ecceptionally surefooted either. Many times, it's far safer to get down an walk, and then you still have to figure out how to get your horse through it. While they make up time in some ways, many times they can be a hinderance.

    A thought about feet: you might want to google farrier work. If your characters are going to be out away from anyone able to do foot care (depending on time period...) they are going to know a thing or two about this. Ignoring this little detail would really be an oversite in the realism department,
     
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  13. theamorset

    theamorset Member

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    In the 1100s in China, shoeing of horses - probably not widely used among the pack horses, work horses. But definitely needed.
     
  14. SweetOrbMace

    SweetOrbMace Member

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    Thanks @theamorset for the feedback, I'll incorporate the discomfort for sure.

    To be clear the kind of "learning how to ride" I was thinking of, was more in line with what @BirdsDontCry has been doing in taking guests out. So she's not off on her own, she's part of wider convoy and being led by expert riders. I should have made that clearer.
     
  15. theamorset

    theamorset Member

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    Ok, but then you'll have to allow more time. A large group means more logistics, more issues. Her group moved at about 2 miles an hour on average terrain, this terrain is much more demanding.
     
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  16. Caveriver

    Caveriver Active Member

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    Exactly. I mean, these people typically weren't interested in learning how to really ride, just doing the tourist thing. Pretty much sitting there like a sack of potatoes. We put them in a line, trust our horses, and try to get the people through the ride alive (without pissing them off-not easy). A person with basic experience could make it through the longer ride, but unless you do it often, your body is going to protest.
    Now throw in any sort of curveball, and people fall off. Horses spook. Even the best ones will sometimes. Until you've stuck through all sorts of behavioral surprises... You're gonna fall off once in a while. That's dangerous in any situation, much worse the further out you are.
    I used to tell people: riding horses is not like riding a roller coaster. You don't just sit there. And way more stuff can go wrong.
     
  17. theamorset

    theamorset Member

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    I once asked an old timer how one could make that worse. 'Harness the horse to a cart'.

    AHAHAHAHA.

    That said, during this time frame, I don't think carts were used. Supplies were packed on horses.

    OH! That's right. With this story now having a group of people riding, without doubt, you'll be packing a lot of supplies on additional horses.
     
  18. theamorset

    theamorset Member

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    I once asked an old timer how one could make that worse. 'Harness the horse to a cart'.

    AHAHAHAHA.

    That said, during this time frame, I don't think carts were used. Supplies were packed on horses.

    OH! That's right. With this story now having a group of people riding, without doubt, you'll be packing a lot of supplies on additional horses.
     
  19. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

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    Not when it comes to horses (although, growing up next door to a farm with working horses, I did pick up a few things).

    I understand what you mean, though. There have been quite a few times while reading novels that I've given up on the story because the author obviously didn't know technical or professional details and I simply couldn't take the rest of the story seriously because of that. I've worked in a lot of different professions over the last 45 years and I'm beginning to think I'd be better off—when it comes to enjoying fiction—if I hadn't. Some of the characters I've balked at:
    • computer experts who obviously don't know any more than the average Windows user,
    • martial arts experts who use Tai Kwan Do or Judo in deadly situations... and win!,
    • any character who has mastered more than one profession before the age of 30
     
  20. A man called Valance

    A man called Valance Senior Member

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    Nothing to contribute... just wanted to say how informative this thread has been and thank all concerned.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2016
  21. Yoav

    Yoav Member

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    Was George RR Martin mentioned before? He definitely should be. When he began writing A song of Ice and Fire, he didn't actually know how horses looked like. I believe he described them as having wheels, and also horses in his mind were growling and barking. Here's an article about it.

    EDIT: YEEZUS FUCKING XRIST I'm retarded. I didn't realize this site was a satire site (A shitty buzzfeed site that is). It's just a fact I heard from a long while ago. P.S. I did read the ASOIAF, but I kind skipped through some parts, as the writing style wasn't for me.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2016
  22. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    That article has to be some kind of joke. Maybe I'm missing something here because I just woke up, but I'm thoroughly confused.
     
  23. Caveriver

    Caveriver Active Member

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    Anybody who has read any of these books has to know that article is clickbait.
     
  24. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

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    I though I was the only one who knew where Tongchuan was, if it is the same place... about 30-60 miles ENE from Xian, 30 miles N of Wei in the mountainous foothills?

    My group went north from "Copper River" to the Ordos loop riding 1st century Mongolian ponies. On good terrain (and based on horse owners) I assumed 40 miles per day, especially for tough Mongolians, but they also had a few spares. Nice thing about Mongolians is they don't need shoes, and can eat rough grasses.
     
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  25. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Well, humour, I think. So, yes, a joke, but not necessarily clickbait?
     

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