I think that a certain level of forgiveness is required for forums. By this I mean; if the post is readable there really is no need to ridicule the author about their post. I do agree that if you are presenting a piece of work, you should have the self-respect to present something worth reading. But on the flipside bashing someone for a few minor overlooked errors isn't exactly tactful. Many times even proofreading doesn't catch everything. In closing I think all in all the medium in which you are presenting your words should affect the level of polish used. Let's face it, spending an extra ten minutes proof reading a forum post to ensure you didn't accidentally type there instead of their just isn't worth it.
I can assure you that the mods here won't allow anyone bashing or ridiculing anyone else. The original poster was referring to submissions made in the workshop area where the writer is hopefully improving a piece of writing. This is a writing forum and I feel members should communicate to the best of their ability, even in the Lounge when chatting casually. And it doesn't take ten minutes to proof a normal size forum post. A few seconds to express yourself in a literate manner is good practice for your serious writing.
I have a personal philosophy about the spelling and grammar issue. If someone posts a piece in the review room that is plagued by spelling and grammar errors, I don't necessarily have a problem with it. Everyone has a starting point and for a number of reasons, some people just aren't capable of putting out a well polished piece of work. However, if someone does post a piece like this, it better be because they need help and not because they're lazy. If someone knowingly posts garbage then they have not shown respect to the reviewing audience and have not earned a thoughtful review beyond the nuts and bolts approach.
True. One thing that always annoys me is when I see something like: Yeah, we can see you didn't put much effort into it. Now tell me, why should WE?
This thread reminds me of this one. Which I full hardly agree with the guy who made the thread. I think many people are mistaking the term editor for reviewer. An editor works on the unfinished bits. Where a reviewer rates a piece of work. I think it's unfair and almost rude for you to say people are lazy. Or that a rough draft should be completely cleansed of SPAG. It can be a combination of lazy, rusty, young, or language. My main language isn't English. Even though I've lived in America for a few years now, it's still hard to write English sometimes. I try so hard and I put so much effort into catching my SPAG that I feel sometimes my story will never get done because I catch something and change it while still on chapter 1. Not only that, but there is a combination with me still be a teenager. I'm young and still inexperienced with proper writing. I also think there needs to be writing style taken in account. Creativity is sort of stunned by fix this grammar and fix this spelling. Some people write in a style more close to conversational speech. Now I'm not saying those who do not put in time are writing in that style. But those who do put in the time. Everyone has a voice. Everyone has a style. I find my writing take the shape of a writer who was wordy and had some what we could call today grammar mistakes. But then take in the period and era the writer was living they still hadn't fully perfected everything about writing. I'm just sort of tired of all these people putting words into our writing. Because he has SPAG he's a lazy writer. <---not always the case Because he writes in a speech pattern, he's a bad writer. <---not always the case As an reviewer we have to be flexible and take things into account.
As a critiquer, you get to decide where the focus needs to be. The writer can say, "Ignore my spelling and grammar, and just focus on the plot," but the critic can simple say to himself, "Fine, I'll just critique someone else." And probably will. Leaka, you keep bringing this up, but the simple fact is that spelling, grammar, and punctuation are not elements you can ignore, or expect readers and critics to ignore.
I truly believe that as writers, we are responsible for what we present to our fellow members for review. We have the responsibility to clean up and polish our work. Personally, every word, every line, every thought, reflects who I am as a writer, as well as a person. The manner of care I put into everything I post matters greatly to me. I expect the same from the other members who post. I have to say, Cogito put it best. Why should any of us take extra time and care when working on a presented piece, when the writer and presenter doesn't apply the same consideration for his/her own work?
This illustrates why you and others with limitations such as yours need to focus on SPaG while continuing with your creative endeavors. You CAN work on both. I've noticed a direct correlation between the amount of arguing that SPaG doesn't matter and that person's level of difficulty overcoming, or willingness to learn this aspect of writing despite how much it sucks. And it does. English is my native language and I still feel lost sometimes. Instead of moaning about how SPaG reviews stifle your creativity, which is a cop-out, learn to embrace those reviews until you've mastered the English language so critters can focus on other aspects of your writing. Your last post was a bit rough around the edges, but I've noticed when you take more time when you post your SPaG has gotten a LOT better than I remember it was even six months ago.
In a blog article, Five Reasons Why Literary Agents Reject Manuscripts Out of Hand, Evan Marshall wrote:
Not everyone here is a native English speaker, OK. And nobody is demanding perfect grammar, flawless spelling or punctuation. But it's perfectly reasonable to expect proper grammar, basic vocabulary and minimum punctuation. I would tend to agree with Gallowglass here. I am, as heretofore noted, a great stickler for proper grammar. That being said, I also struggle on a daily basis with two second languages as well as my first language - American English. So I know the pitfalls of trying to navigate your way through a foreign land, so to speak. I know I oftentimes mutilate my second languages and so I have some degree of sympathy for those on these boards who are navigating English as a second language. (When I see a post or excerpt here rife with grammatical (and spelling) errors , my first instinct is to check their profile to see where they are from, which doesn't always help because so many do not show their point of origin.) If I find they are from Nebraska or Minnesota, Alabama or Maine or anywhere else in the United States or British Isles, I figure they should be able to use their native language appropriately... even in a forum such as this - especially a forum such as this. I have seen so many people defend their sloppy writing habits by saying, "Hey! It's just an online forum. It's not like I'm sending it to an agent or something!" To me, that's a shameful attitude for a writer. If they don't care about what they put out for someone else to read here, it will carry over into all of their writing. And I'm not talking about a typo here and there; I mean just plain sloppy writing habits! I'm glad to see your concern for proper grammar and writing skills, neags23. Stick to your guns! Just remember ... Integrity and Compassion in everything.
I agree. Call me a grammar nazi (or, in fact, please don't, I'm easily offended by nazi-related insults, I get them enough by Anti-German morons on social networking sites), but I even copyedit emails for grammar, spelling and style. If I of all people (who has a pretty tight schedule) am capable of putting so much effort into a trivial message I send to an old pal, give me just ONE reason you can't do the same for a piece of creative writing? Exactly my point.
One big fact that I feel is pushed on this site is that when you post a piece of your work, you are in fact publishing it. That is why it is discouraged to post your whole novel, since it will ruin your chances of publishing. So shouldn't we be treating our work as if it is getting published? I think that it would be more beneficial for everyone if the writer would edit the work completely before posting it. You are sending your work to be judged, and as a writer, you want to get the greatest score possible. Your fellow writers will give honest opinions, and will even help you with SPaG. I don't have a problem with errors, since many writers, especially new ones, may not be familiar with certain rules, or may have learned something the wrong way. What I don't like is sloppiness. For most works, it is fairly easy to see if the writer was being sloppy or not. Perhaps writers should be asked to edit their work before posting it. I know threads are closed if the writer didn't critique yet, but it would be great if they could also be closed for thoughtless work. You will get a much better critique if you edit your work first. I find that I have a hard time critiquing work if I need to focus on SPaG. For example: "Teh parot swet huge dropplets of sweat on too the flore" A reviewer is more likely going to mention the spelling and punctuation than the fact that birds don't sweat. A reviewer is also not going to grow much if all they do is correct spelling. Maybe their spelling will improve a little, but other than that, they aren't going to get anything out of reviewing the piece.
Good idea, should be incorporated into the rules. The crassest thing I ever came across though was some Australian guy who spoke and understood German perfectly but couldn't write it, so he wrote it in English phonetics... ...so we got something like: what should have been What he wrote would in turn would have been pronounced in German completely difference. If I were to put that pronounciation into English phonetics, it would have been: So, as you can imagine, it was completely absurd and he eventually left because we always had trouble actually deciphering what he meant
