Contemplating Infodumps

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by EdFromNY, Dec 22, 2010.

  1. Show

    Show Contributor Contributor

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    And that I can agree with. I don't have a problem with any of this or in seeing which ways a particular scene/story can be strengthened.
     
  2. TWErvin2

    TWErvin2 Contributor Contributor

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    Infodumps become infodumps if they are identified as such by more than a few readers based on a reasonable and common definition.

    The ultimate decision as to the use of such a method to insert information for the reader is up to the writer. In addition, the author can call the infodump something else entirely, especially if the author believes it isn't one becasue they disagree with some other person's or group's definition.

    The ultimate verification of 'if it worked' or 'if it did not' is if a publisher accecpts the piece for publication--and, even then, if the publisher's editor that the author works with strongly suggests such episodes of information dumping are worked into the story another way.

    In the end, the author has to decide how to proceed, based upon his audience. The first audience is himself, the second audience is the agents/editors being submitted to, and the final audience is the readers of the published work. How well the crit partners/readers reflect those audiences? While relevant to this discussion, it's really a tangent to a whole nother one.
     
  3. popsicledeath

    popsicledeath Banned

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    This is the issue. Despite one's definition of 'infodump' people seem to want to argue that as long as it's relevant and interesting, then it's just fine.

    But from my perspective a writer is already taking the wrong approach if they're sitting there trying to figure out when they should tell the reader a bit of information. If it's as easy as, 'oh, I need to let the reader know he used to defuse bombs, hrm where should I write the line 'he used to defuse bombs' sort of thing, it's bad, whether it's a huge block of backstory and even if it's absolutely relevant.

    That's the crux of it, for a character to feel real they need to feel as if they're existing with the full weight of their history on their shoulders, not as if they're a character sketch of the writer.

    Too often, even relevant and interesting backstory or infodump is mucked up by writers who thing the important thing is getting the information into the story, when the important thing is create a character the reader understands IS the person who experience and lived whatever information you, the writer, have on the character.

    Meaning, if we're going along in a story about a meat packer in New Jersey and suddenly there's a nuclear bomb scare and the writer tosses in some 'btw' information about how it's a good thing he used to defuse nuclear bombs, well that's an 'aww, c'mon' moment for most people as before that moment the character maybe didn't feel or act like someone who used to defuse bombs.

    So, writers learn that information needs to be delivered BEFORE the moment it's relevant (like Chekov's gun needs to be put into the scene before it can go off, because if someone just pulls out a gun for no reason we're left to think it was all just a tad too convenient on the part of the writer). So, we then often see a prologue or a story that doesn't actually start right away because the writer is trying to deliver backstory.

    Backstory is the thing the WRITER needs to know, not the reader most of the time.

    People--which our character's should feel like--don't have backstory, they have their personal history. And people--whether on their own or at the prompting of a writer if a character--don't usually go around informing others of the relevant details of their backstory when in a new situation. These things are simply part of the character, and when such information is delivered in a way that feels separate from the character, no matter how relevant or interesting, it distances a reader from the character's experiences.

    So again, I argue the important thing isn't always what we as readers know about the character, but how that knowledge is delivered. It's hard to get the reader to understand who and what the character is without simply stating facts and injecting direct information into the text. The best stories convey everything you need to know in context of the character, indirectly, creating the feeling the character simply has a history. The worst stories read like a textbook, where you swear there's going to be a quiz at the end because the author is throwing out so many facts and tidbits of information it's lost.

    Usually the problem stems from a lack of confidence in a reader, or insecurity on the part of a writer. Over and over I hear the excuse 'but the reader won't understand' when defending infodump, or prologues, or any of the other devices plagued by being outside the context of the character.

    I'll use the terrible infodump/prologue construction Is over and over: writers feel they need to deliver a prologue or block of text depicting the character as a kid, usually in some struggle or bad situation like having been an orphan.

    But orphans in the real world, especially those destined as saviors of the world, don't go around first delivering a prologue to everyone that meet so people can understand 'where they came from.' People are more complex than that, and them telling someone a 'hook' backstory about them as an orphan growing up wouldn't really tell us who they are, just something that happened to them once. In the real world, that's what it would be, just something that happened to someone once and we'd be looking at their current interaction and the things they currently say to try to decipher who they really are.

    Basically, we learn a lot more about people by a few minutes interacting with them, than reading their autobiography could ever tell us. This is human nature, where all the non-information things come into play.

    Yet, in a story where we almost all agree our goal is to create real, believable characters, people will avoid simply letting the reader learn about the character by watching them interact and experience the world. What we often get is some character alone in a room, with blocks of text delivering their backstory. At this point, most readers are doing the 'aww, c'mon' thing. If the character really is what you're saying, you'd be able to prove it by having them interacting in that way in the story.

    Don't tell me the character was an orphan, or has a chip on his shoulder from his last job as a nuclear bomb defuser, demonstrate and convey character's that simply ARE those things. Then they feel real, and all the direct writerly interjects of information, infordump, backstory, become redundant or irrelevant because we understand the character is the culmination of their history and don't need told.

    The solution is usually digging deeper into the character's psyche and experiences. So often information is necessary because we're simply watching the character, not experiencing the world through the character. So, we see some guy driving up to the meat packing plant and have to be told he has a chip on his shoulder. Or we see him being a jerk and have to guess the actions we see mean he has a chip on his shoulder. But if we're truly IN the character experience, we won't need told the information about the state of the character, because we'll be experiencing it and understand it.

    This is the problem with direct information. It's either redundant because we already understand and feel the information that the writer then seems to just be summarizing awkwardly for us as readers, as if we're dumb and weren't smart enough to get it. Or it's disconnected from the character and when we're told a character has a chip on his shoulder we don't believe it, because it hasn't been proven or demonstrated, simply stated by the writer. And of course, if the writer then does prove or demonstrate the information on the character, it doesn't need stated.

    Basically, if one is true to what a character is experiencing, and delivers that experience to the reader through the character, while remaining connected to the character, no backstory or stated information or writerly nudges to the reader, or infodump need be present.

    Of course, doing this is harder than simply having a prologue or block of text explaining the facts surrounding a character, and admittedly doing this isn't always what sells the best (one famous writer I won't mention admits to intentionally dumbing down his novels so they're shallower, can be read faster, and thus the next one bought and read quicker). But this is a writer forum where people are mostly trying to learn to write better, right? Not a publishing forum where people are learning to target markets and write in specific ways that sell books. If it is the latter, then my mistake, I'm the one out of place here.

    And guess what, that writer who intentionally writes down to his audience had to become a really good writer to be able to back engineer his craft and have enough control over quality and substance to do what he does. It's not like he just did whatever he wanted and became famous. It's purposeful, but first he had to learn how to write well, and then learned how to write deliberately for an audience.

    And yes, he uses a lot of clumsy infodumps and information intrusions. :p

    But again, good luck breaking into the industry starting out doing that, especially if your best defense is that some other author does it, so why can't you. Well, because until that author's name is on your book jacket's, you're not them, and there's already one of them so why would the industry want another who hasn't even proven they can sell books?

    But no matter what you want to do, or can get away with, it almost always starts first with learning how to write well, as that gives the knowledge and understanding enough to write deliberately for an audience, especially if you're having to write in what could arguably be considered a 'worse' method and style.
     
  4. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    I was with you 100% until here. The ability to read people, their body language and other non-verbal clues, varies greatly from person to person. Those first minutes of interaction only serve to gain enough confidence (or not) to decide to share personal history.

    Earlier this year, I was on a three-week trip to Dallas for job training, and I was with about 30 people, of whom I only knew two. One night, I went to dinner with two guys I had only just met, and with whom I knew I shared an interest in hockey. Over dinner, we told each other a lot about our personal histories (and it turned out that two of us had children with autism). My point being that we explicitly shared this information, as a writer must ultimately share the information about his characters or the conditions in which they live. I agree wholeheartedly that the time is not at the very beginning as a prologue disconnected from the story, nor at the last-minute as a convenience to the writer. But it does have to be told.

    The whole point of telling a story is to create abstractions of time. There may well be times when a prior incident that helped shape the character or the time in which we find him can and should be delivered to the reader in condensed form, rather than dragging it out in a 50-page flashback. Example: A government official is preparing to consult with his wife on a serious matter; they have been married for many years, but she has been unfaithful and they have grown distant, and yet they retain something of a political partnership. One could spend many pages walking the reader through all that, or spend couple of pages of the official's recollections of a few key events. The fact that he can remain in such a relationship without qualms speaks to his essential coldness, and the reader should know that. But I guarantee the reader wants it in condensed form, not in a 50 page subplot.

    You can demonstrate the character, but, I'm sorry, you are actually going to have to tell the reader that he was a nuclear bomb defuser, and if it's relevant to the story, you're probably also going to have to figure out a way to explain something about the job, so that the layman reader will know what is going on.

    Ironically, one of the things that occurred to me in the course of this thread was that it irks me to read postings that focus on word count, and the sense that what we call contemporary fiction must somehow be faster and easier to read than works of the past. It was with this in mind that I started this thread, because there are times when the artful injection of information into a story (that is interesting, relevant and helps with the development of the story or of the characters) makes the story a better read.

    Exactly. Thanks for posting.
     
  5. TokyoVigilante

    TokyoVigilante New Member

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    Doesn't Herman Melville drop a Whale textbook in the middle Moby Dick? If that's not the King of Infodumps, I don't know what is.

    I think it's a matter of style. I enjoy extreme technical details, that pulls me into the story considerably more. I can see why others would find that off putting and take them out, but I think it just comes down to the style of the writer and the taste of the audience.
     
  6. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

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    I had to read Billy Budd from Melville in college and it was like a manual how to sail a ship, and frankly I can't even remember who Billy was. I was not able at that age to dscipline myself to actually read it and attempted to psychically glean the meaning of the book. Needless to say, I did not receive a very good grade on the report.
     
  7. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    As I recall, at one point, every other Chapter is an informative one on whales and not really a furtherance of the story.

    I don't think those qualify as "infodumps" because they're not really part of the story and Melville knew it. To me, an infodump is the ham-handed disgorging of information that the author feels necessary to relate to the reader for the story (or backstory).

    Melville put those chapters in merely to educate or inform the reader on particular details of whaling, which I suppose he thought many people would find interesting. He did so knowing they didn't further the story itself, and it wasn't his intention to do so. He's just educating readers on what whaling was really like at that point. If you're interested, you can read them. If you skip over them, you won't lose any of the story itself.
     
  8. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I think Billy Budd is an interesting commentary on natural law versus positive law. Or at least it can be viewed that way. Moby Dick is much better as far as 'story' goes.
     
  9. Show

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    Doesn't it qualify as an infodump then? It's just an honest one.
     
  10. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

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    Yes, it probably deserves a reread; I wasn't in the correct frame of mind for it at the time. However, that same professor got me interested in Voltaire, and now I'm a fanatic for the guy. I'd love to bring him back to life.
     
  11. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Well...to me "infodump' is a pejorative. It's an author badly dumping a lot of background information or other story information into a story. With Melville, those chapters are just dedicated to describing whaling as it existed at that time.

    Anyway, it's a fine distinction I suppose :)
     
  12. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    Am I absolutely alone in my nerdery that I quite like infodumps and prologues etc when readng? I love having all that extra bits of information and feeling like I know it all as I read.
     
  13. Show

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    @Steerpike: I guess it makes it an unusual type of infodump, definitely. I guess it all comes back to the individual definition of what is seen as an infodump.

    @Elga: Nope. I frankly enjoy a good infodump sometimes(not to be confused with a bad one). Infodumps I feel can help me better immerse myself into the world of the story, if done right of course. So to me, infodumps are just one tool among many to be used or abused. Like anything, I can enjoy it in the hands of a good writer.
     
  14. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    That makes sense, Show. I suppose I just end up calling it an 'infodump' when it is poorly handled. If well done, and it holds my attention, I don't label it as such. Probably doesn't make sense to make that distinction though.
     
  15. Show

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    ^^^^I think that is the point of the thread though, we label something poorly handled an infodump. Kind of like a show always has "jumped the shark" when it produces a single episode that was less than outstanding. I think the terms have become safe words to use when something fails to meet our standards.

    And if something holds your attention and excites you, who's really to say that it's still bad?
     
  16. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    However because we label and speak about it contemptuously sometimes what can be a darn good read is left out by a new writer. Those that don't like an infodump well done can always skip it - those of us that do like to read it can't read something that hasn't been put there.
     
  17. Show

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    "But if it doesn't make the story better, it shouldn't be there no matter how good it is." (Devil's advocate moment. :p )

    I'm not blind to that point but in all honesty, everything will have it's supporters and opponents. I say write and see what works for you as a writer. Clearly there needs to be common sense. Guidelines shouldn't be an all or nothing thing. Write the story and see what different people think. Consider their points but keep it all in perspective and improve the story accordingly.
     
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  18. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    If your nerdery in reading the infodump increases the enjoyment of the book - sure it makes the story better ?
     
  19. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    Jules Verne's 20000 Leagues Under the Sea contains massive infodumps too. I note that some modern editions have edited them out.
     
  20. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

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    I don't mind them as long as the character is a credible source of the info. If you take your car to the mechanic he'll give you an infodump on what he did and why if you ask. But, that's not negative because it makes sense. The same would be true if I'm a new vampire hunter and an old vet gave me the detail. In fact, I'd pump his dump for all it was worth. But, I don't want ye old Innkeeper telling me all of that because he should have alerted the government or something.
     
  21. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    <-----has come to the realization that efforts to limit the use of a pejorative term to those situations that warrant them (so as to allow said pejorative term to retain some semblance of meaning and at least marginal utility) have been all for naught. (Heavy sigh).
     
  22. arron89

    arron89 Banned

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    THIS misuse of the term 'infodump' is the reason this thread exists. A mechanic explaining crucial information is not an infodump, it's (in the context of a (particularly mundane) story) exposition. Relevant, presumably well- and authentically written and significant to the characters and therefore to the readers.

    If a passage of exposition does not meet those criteria, then it may (may) be considered an infodump. If exposition is relevant and well-written, there is no reason to consider it an infodump, which is inescapably pejorative and should only be applied when it refers to the ineptitude of an author. Tolstoy does not 'infodump,' he explains. Your disdain for his style does not alter this fact, nor does anyone's preference for verbosity excuse poorly written exposition (infodumps) in the work of other authors. But there are objective standards by which these things can be judged, and it is incorrect to assume that any piece of exposition is an infodump.
     
  23. Agreen

    Agreen Faceless Man Contributor

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    This. Exposition is not an infodump- an infodump is a particular type of poorly written exposition. While you can argue as to whether a particular bit of exposition is necessary, there are times, especially in genre fiction, when it must be included. The challenge is working the information into the story in such a way it doesn't detract from the story- for example, from the post Arron is responding to, the mechanic is presenting the owner of the car important information the owner is otherwise unable to attain. This is different from having two characters explain something that they both already know purely for the sake of presenting that information to the reader (the dreaded 'As you know Bob...')
     
  24. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

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    [Hammer of Thor crashes on to table]

    Don't quote me out of context.
     
  25. arron89

    arron89 Banned

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    The context of your post doesn't change anything--you misused the term 'infodump' in your example in the same way that many other people do, prompting this thread to be started in the first place. What you were describing, as I explained, cannot be called an infodump. The post wasn't necessarily directed at you, you just provided a convenient example of the term's misuse.
     

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