Craft of Writing

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by Garball, Jun 19, 2013.

  1. M.J.Rahman

    M.J.Rahman New Member

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    From entry # 2:
    All of your eager to improve your descriptive-narrative writing (which should be any aspiring fiction writer) just hold; we are moving steady through the dark forest, trying our best to avoid Mr. Delillo’s dark magic from haunting our dreams.

    From entry #1:
    There was a reason Plato despised the great orators, and warned against their evil ability to string together words capable of manipulating the heart. Well, hopefully, I will get close to learning that piece of dark magic haunting the forest, and you, you free-loaders lounging in your chairs eating ice cream, you can hop along for the ride :).

    From entry #7:
    And if you were keeping a count on that Hemingway example, yes, there are five Absolute constructions in that sentence; and if you were thinking that that is because Absolutes are a match made in Heaven for descriptive-narration, you would be correct. But more on that later.

    ----------

    I keep asking you to be patient. Once you see have an overview of all the different structures, then we can go into their applications, and see the choices the authors made, and see what happens when we substitute another construction for that choice.
     
  2. M.J.Rahman

    M.J.Rahman New Member

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    For you, and those wanting a more subjective analysis of a piece of work, I've posted one such example. It's entry #12. I hope you found it helpful, and if you didn't, well, you can always come back and denounce me as a bullshiter.
     
  3. JayG

    JayG Banned Contributor

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    Nonsense. You're showing excerpts from various stories and presuming to know why those lines were included. But you are not including the words of those authors speaking about the process, you're only showing the product, and giving your personal opinion. But what's your qualification for making that analysis? Apparently, that you're an engineering student.

    And given that you show nothing of your own writing, and admit that it was both rejected and that you took no meaningful steps to correct that, where's the demonstration that what you say matters does?

    No you're not. You're talking about how you think it was used. And given that after using those theories to construct your own novel it was rejected. So which of the points you state so assuredly as being accurate caused the rejection? Unless you can identify it with some level of confidence, demonstrably, you're giving some bad advice. We just don't know which of it is and which isn't.

    So you wrote it to pleasure yourself? Unfortunately when doing that we have the kindest of critics. And in any case that's a cop out. You're making excuses why it wasn't accepted, not giving reasons. Unless and until you can sell what you write you can only say, "I think this is true," unless you're quoting an authority on the subject.

    Michaelangelo did not have a college degree, nor did Leonardo da Vinci. Thomas Edison didn't. Neither did Mark Twain (though he was granted honorary degrees in later life.) All of these people were professionals. None of them were experts. Get your education from professionals, and always avoid experts.” ~ Holly Lisle
    Ahh... the old, "So-and-so had a problem selling a first story and he was a genius. I was unable to sell my story. Therefore I am the same as So-and-so." If only.

    Here's the deal. Forget whether your novel sold or didn't sell. Post a thousand words in the workshop, here. Then you'll see if you're writing on a professional level. And your readers will see if they want to take advice from you.

    But all that aside, you're making the basic mistake of believing you can argue someone into liking your work. You can't. Your reader, be that for fiction or nonfiction, is the customer, and their opinion is final. If they don't get the message you intended it's your fault, because it's the reader and what your words mean to that reader. Your intent is irrelevant.

    Moderator: I suspect that this thread has outlived its usefulness.
     
  4. M.J.Rahman

    M.J.Rahman New Member

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    Lol. My writing is available to anyone who wants to sample! Just click on the link to amazon and take a peak. It's not that difficult.

    I'm not one to wallow and sit around crying over my manuscript. I didn't even bother sending out my second one. I self-published. It's out there and you can read it any time you want. Just open it, and start reading. It's free to look inside.

    And as for not posting my own work; you have clearly dismissed me before even waiting more than a day of my blog because I don't have a contract. No one wants to follow the techniques of a no name, and they are not even techniques, they are the inherent built up mechanism of our language. If you don't want to learn that, it's fine.

    I don't understand the mentality of this forum. I'm not selling you anything, yet some of you are acting as if I'm conning you out of money.

    It's a free blog.
    It's free.
    Read, take what you find useful, discard what you don't.
    It's free.
     
  5. eleutheria

    eleutheria Member

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    So because you're not selling it we should believe it? Uh, no. People have taken you to task over the quality of your attempts to help, and yes, that is up for discussion. No one should take advice to heart before looking at it critically.

    And yes, credits do matter. I wouldn't go to a doctor who hadn't been to medical school. Sheer talent can overcome that, but ... I don't see that in your blog.
     
  6. M.J.Rahman

    M.J.Rahman New Member

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    That is fair. I have no problem with that. And I never asked to be believed. I came, posted a link, wrote an abstract that stated my intentions for the blog, and that was it. From there, I think people assumed I was selling a product or leading people to a portal where they would be forced to buy something. It isn't.

    And as the blog says, Writer in Perpetual Training. I've been at this for three years, and it would be silly of me to claim any mastery. I happened to have seen improvements in my work from when I first wrote, and wanted to offer help to those who were on a similar path.

    I made no claims that you would somehow get published if you come to my blog. I simply said you'd become a better writer. I still believe that.
     
  7. Garball

    Garball Banned Contributor

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    I think any knowledge gained is worth sharing. Two thousand ways to not make a lightbulb and all that jazz.
     
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  8. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    First, it would be great if you spell the name of the author you're quoting correctly.

    Second, it's hard to analyze individual sentences and say what works or what doesn't. Instead, look at entire passages. You'll be able to talk about a lot more if you look at several sentences instead of just one.

    Third, you still aren't looking at the why. For example, this is what you wrote about the sentence you were looking at: "You start, lazy, with modifiers growing in size, and then suddenly, they shrink in size, (nearly orange, melancholy, as heavy as honey), and finally, that last coordinated clause slows it all down for full effect." Why is starting with "modifiers growing in size" and then "shrink[ing] in size" important? How is it more effective than the opposite case? You need to be thinking along those lines.
     
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  9. M.J.Rahman

    M.J.Rahman New Member

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    It's is "prose-poetry". There is no narrative, so any adjacent bit of imagery would just confuse the reader.

    As for the why, isn't it obvious to the reader? It is simply showing you how to create narrative speed. You can speed up and slow down, and that can be applied to scenes of action, where you can string together modifiers that create that quickening of pace, and then slow it down to emphasis a dramatic event.

    Again, I feel like authors are too impatient. I can't just boil all the different applications down into one post. Sorry. In this one, I was focusing on the use of successive imagery to enforce a certain idea.
     
  10. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    If it's obvious to the reader, then that defeats the whole purpose of your blog, doesn't it?
     
  11. M.J.Rahman

    M.J.Rahman New Member

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    I broke it down for you. I separated each clause into its own line, showing you how the word counts differ visually. How the first three increase in size, and then the next few decrease, and the last one increases.

    The blog is meant to get you thinking and conversing like we are right now. It isn't my manifesto.

    So, you had questions, and you asked, and I tried to answer to get you to see how I saw the piece of work. Is that not desirable? I don't know. I kind of like that better than just being told everything, step by step, until it loses any mental dependence on my part.
     
  12. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    What I was getting at is that if such things are obvious to the reader, why do they need you to break it down for them? They can just as easily read the sentence and figure out why it works for themselves. That's why you need the why in your analysis.
     
  13. M.J.Rahman

    M.J.Rahman New Member

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    My mistake, I guess. I thought if I break the sentence into it's parts, line it up to show the change in length, and then talk about the resultant speeding up of narrative, it would be clear. Well, noted. I'll work on simplifying my thoughts even step further.
     
  14. JayG

    JayG Banned Contributor

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    No, I read the blog before I commented. I was being diplomatic. And continuing in that vein I'll just say that now that I've looked at the excerpts I can see where the publisher rejected the stories, and why (I used to own a manuscript critiquing service). And that, in and of itself, speaks to the accuracy of your conclusions as to what matters and does not matter vis-a-vis writing technique. I don't doubt your sincerity or value as a human being, only the accuracy of your conclusions. And since you did open this thread to attract readers for your blog, and present yourself as knowledgeable, such reactions are within the scope of the TOS of this site and literary discussions in general.

    You are free to offer the service. And as you say, you're not charging. But having offered you have no control over the observer's perception of the value of the offering. Critics are a pain in the ass, but they are a fact of life.

    As a side comment, there are no obvious links to your Amazon page on your site, and nothing to suggest to the reader that what they're looking at is anything more than a synopsis with a picture heading it. Using the picture as a link can work, but you need something in the text below it that tells the reader that it is avaialable and where.
     
  15. Andrae Smith

    Andrae Smith Bestselling Author|Editor|Writing Coach Contributor

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    I agree. I'll add, though, that presentation and credentials are everything in today's society. Any reader can look at information and determine whether it is good or bad.for himself or herself. I believe the source of contention here is related to ego. There just seems to be a little bit of ego-flexing speckled throughout this thread.

    Regarding the actual blog, thanks for sharing, @M.J.Rahman. I'm sure it will be a useful resource for somebody. It probably could use some more detail, and the voiced could probably be tightened or professionalized a bit (But that is my nitpicking out of personal preference.)

    Regarding your writing, as presented by the your novel (I did go to Amazon and read some of it), there is some clear room for what I would think of as improvement. Your prose is solid, disregarding some expressions and punctuation choices stand out to me (more than I would like in the first three paragraphs though). The main issue is that you are so focused on creating gratifying detail that the first page strikes me as a little overdone, and I leave whole paragraphs wondering why I was given certain detailing. It was sort of glorified informing, and not very entertaining to me.

    The reason I bring it up is not to critique your writing, but to point out that it illustrates something that I'm learning is very important: good fiction requires balance in order to be effective and entertaining. The language, alone, may offer some thrills, but it will not hold the attention of most readers if the information is boring or inconsequential. The advice you give in your blog is not bad, and I can see your application in your writing. The next step would be to consider not just how the words work to form good prose, but what elements go into good fiction, assuming that is the mode of writing you're talking about.

    Anyway, I guess my point is stay humble. Like you said, there is more to learn. Be careful not to neglect certain aspects of writing, and be wary of presenting your findings as absolute. Writing accomplishes many things by combinations of various techniques.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  16. M.J.Rahman

    M.J.Rahman New Member

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    Thanks. I understand that my work is not going to sell. I only sent the first one out because I was told to do so by those who had read it as I wrote (all bullshit about owing it to myself). It's not that big a deal. I'm 24, and I'm not in any rush to have my work read, nor am I using my blog to sell my books. I put em up so people know that I put into use what I'm preaching.

    But I will probably use them to teach narration, as they show Third-person figural narrators, and first-person unreliable and reliable. So, yeah. I won't be "hiding" my work as you probably think I'm doing.
     
  17. M.J.Rahman

    M.J.Rahman New Member

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    I too was worried about the pacing, but you see, that is one of the key scene of my novel, and it is revisited near the end, and serves a purpose. I wanted it to drag so as to make the reader either pick up on its importance, or to remember the details.

    The action does pick up thou.

    As for the punctuation. I let a few drop because my character drifts into her thoughts as she questions the Gods, and being a Pilgrim; she has to run in dead and empty lands, and that emptiness causes her great pain and mundane loneliness until all punctuation is gone. Chapter 2 starts with a page without a punctuation break because she's been running for a whole day in grasslands.

    So, yeah. I was going to cover that topic in narration about when to break free from punctuation and when to use fragments.

    Anyways, thanks for reading. You're probably the first one to have beside me. lol.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  18. Andrae Smith

    Andrae Smith Bestselling Author|Editor|Writing Coach Contributor

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    Well I'm glad I didn't come across as overbearing or offensive. Based on what you've said here, now, my word of advice would be to recognize the distinction between intent or purpose and effectiveness. Your choices may make sense to you while simultaneously confusing the readers. Remember that readers go in with expectations (as I believe you mentioned before), and we have to take good care not to jostle them too much or it is a breech of the unspoken contract we have with them through language as presented in printed fiction. Ya follow?

    Anyway, that's a discussion for another place and time and doesn't do much good without specifics. For now I'll just say try not to be too harsh on the members of this forum. I've not seen them become so agitated so quickly. They're really nice people mos of the time (not that it matters since this is the internet :rolleyes:). We're all here to learn and help each other. BTW, Welcome to the Forum.
     
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  19. JayG

    JayG Banned Contributor

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    Without going into specifics, because this is not the place for a critique, You cannot use either to teach narration or how to write. They're filled with major structural problems, beginning with the first few lines, as an acquiring editor or agent would view them.
     
  20. M.J.Rahman

    M.J.Rahman New Member

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    I'm not blogging about what editors and agents want. It's the craft, and those particular narrators happen to be a very big part of literature the reading community enjoys, and a lot of writers want to emmulate.
     
  21. M.J.Rahman

    M.J.Rahman New Member

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    it's not overbearing. The reader easily picks up on the fact that 'and' serves as a new comma.
    As for expectations, that is why I do it after a lengthy first chapter, after great tragedy occurs. The reader is mentally prepared and hopefully invested. If not, then so be it. It was one of the most enjoyable parts of writing, immersing yourself in a strange state and seeing the world differently. I enjoy that.

    Again, I'm not teaching that for people as best practise. It is why I started with the fundamentals of writing, simple sentence parts. By the time that bit comes along, hopefully those reading the blog with some frequency will know what it is that I'm doing, and will not balk.
     
  22. JayG

    JayG Banned Contributor

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    Nonsense. Not one person here has agreed with you. And we're all devoted readers and interested in writing. And again, all you've given is your idea of what those writers you quote were trying to accomplish with a given line. You have no clue of why the author chose that line over others, or what their intent was. And what you present, labeled as craft has little to do with what teachers and professionals call the craft of writing.

    And if you're not blogging what publishers look for in a submission you damn well better make it plain, in the blog, that if someone follows your advice it's a guaranteed rejection.
     
  23. Andrae Smith

    Andrae Smith Bestselling Author|Editor|Writing Coach Contributor

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    Well, I look forward to seeing you around here. I'm sure the forum will offer you a great place to learn and enjoy a sense of community. You may even have something useful to add. ;)
     
  24. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

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    I have to step in and say a couple of things:

    1) @M.J.Rahman is a new member. Please, people, don't welcome him by calling him a "bullshit artist" or anything of that nature. We're all free to look at his blog and accept or reject his conclusions as we see fit.

    2) @M.J.Rahman has not fulfilled the requirements for posting his work for critique here, as stated in the rules (please read them, @M.J.Rahman), and so nobody should be asking him to post his work here at this point. Give him a couple of weeks and let him fulfill the requirements before you start disparaging him for not posting his stuff. Even if he did post it now, we'd have to remove it until he meets the requirements.

    I haven't read his blog or his work on Amazon, so I'm in no position to comment. I assume he's offering his blog in the spirit of trying to be helpful, and that, at least, should be cheered. :)

    @M.J.Rahman, I think one reason you were greeted with hostility here is that you joined a community made up, mostly, of writers with a lot more experience than you have. Some of us (not me, sadly, but I haven't submitted very much) have even been published! These include @JayG and @David K. Thomasson. Yet you swooped in like some kind of angel bearing the Holy Truth of Writing Craft, implicitly treating us all like fools floundering around with no clue. That's not going to win you many friends. Lighten up a bit, and maybe we can all go on learning how to write.

    Welcome to the forum! :)
     
  25. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    bravo, minstrel!... definitely living up to your 'super moderator' label... hugs, m
     

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