Critique is not always pretty, and that's a good thing.

Discussion in 'Revision and Editing' started by GingerCoffee, Jul 11, 2015.

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  1. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    So saying one shouldn't destroy a new writer is equal to false encouragement? Seriously?

    Well, now we've circled back. :( What are the "objective elements" of which skill sets? Or did I miss your response to that continuing question somewhere in this mess of a thread?
     
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  2. The Mad Regent

    The Mad Regent Senior Member

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    I think if destroy a newbie writer in the name of what you ... you personally think will provide better feedback then you simply don't understand all the components required to become successful in anything. Just because some blunt criticism might have worked for you once or twice, doesn't mean it's the correct method, nor does it mean it'll work for everyone. And you certainly shouldn't ever consider becoming a teacher.

    How can anyone learn anything when they're being stripped of their confidence, spirit, and ambition by some overzealous critic who thinks that just because they took the rocky road that everyone else should.

    If you convey your feedback in a polite and more sensitive manner, the author will like you, trust you, and most importantly, listen to you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2015
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  3. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    My best professors were the ones that weren't afraid to bear down. I had one of them rip my drawing to shreds, and his classes consistently turned out the best students. It wasn't a case of "working once or twice", the professor's classes were a movie worthy success story.

    I'm not afraid of blunt criticism and the point of this thread is that no one should be. If you're going to ask for input, you need to put your big boy pants on and get ready to listen to what people tell you.
     
  4. The Mad Regent

    The Mad Regent Senior Member

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    Yeah, well, the professors I knew that beared down on people were shit. They were pseudo intellectuals who mistook knowledge for intelligence and tried to force their own one dimensional methods on to people without actually considering that there may be more, and better approaches to things.

    When you ask for input, you're not asking to be insulted, you're asking for an opinion, and sometimes a reason behind that opinion.
     
  5. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    You're clearly not cut out for creative education. The idea that a person, who has literally spent their entire academic life preparing to teach, might be more intelligent than you is too deep a blow to your ego.
     
  6. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    No. I don't see that written anywhere in my posts or anyone else's.

    Telling a new writer there is nothing wrong with their work when there is can do more harm than good. One should point out the positives with the negatives. The 'sandwich' critique is a good model, say something positive, then the negative then something positive again.

    Some people really don't see anything in the work is wrong or can't say anything needs improvement. I'm not talking about those critics.

    But others insist on neutralizing any negative critique given by another. If you note a piece suffers from X, someone comes along and says X doesn't exist, it's just someone's opinion. Or they'll say, that's not X but then it's clear they don't understand what X is themselves. They sabotage other's efforts to help another writer.


    Some people are saying only spelling and grammar are objective. If that were the case then it comes back to the claim there are no other objective writing skills, there are only opinion and preference. Does that make sense to you?

    Is there skill in writing or only taste?
     
  7. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    There are no authorities in creative writing, so at the end of the day you're asking for an (informed) opinion, nothing more.
     
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  8. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Just because someone posts a negative critique doesn't mean all other opinions are precluded. If someone posts a negative critique I disagree with, I may well post a response countering it. Nothing wrong with that.
     
  9. AsherianCommand

    AsherianCommand Active Member

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    I always tell people when critiquing me to be honest about it. But don't be a jerk. You can point out things and say things such as this needs work. Or something along those lines and be constructive. Not borderline insulting the writer for their hard work.

    I remember I was being critiqued in my animation class. And an industry professional came in and started talking to us about how to make models. Etc. But he was really there to see our work. I am a terrible 3d modeller and I had to take the class. And I hated every minute of it. Every day I was in that class, It felt like I was rubbing a cheese grater against my face. It wasn't the teachers fault, it wasn't mine, it was just not my interest at all. Its a real shame because I love learning things and I love learning in general. But it just wasn't interesting and was catering to artists more than someone like me who is a logical thinker and doesn't think in a 3d fashion. So my project is brought up in class And the 'professional' literally told me "You look like you put no time into this, it looks like you just started, and you suck at this."
    I listened quietly said sure I'll change it. and even stated I was in hosptial and I didn't have time to edit it. And he said "Well thats just an excuse."
    That was just a pure insult, from an 'industry professional' it ticked me off so much, I left animation and modelling after that. I usually keep peoples numbers or ask for their work card. I ignored him, I didn't want any part of his company. I was so turned off by it that I had a bad mood after that. And I still do. I still hate 3d modelling to this day.

    Critiquing is about still remembering the person you are critiquing is human. Suggestion. Not saying to them "You suck at this, you suck at everything." Which is something people in my field struggle with. (Game Design)

    Be thought provoking in your critique. Giving an honest opinion but not being a jerk about it. Or elitist. I think giving an honest opinion and ways to improve. Is better than just saying "You suck or you are so wrong it hurts." Or "You look like you didn't spend any time on it." Which aren't constructive it just makes you look like an asshat.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2015
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  10. The Mad Regent

    The Mad Regent Senior Member

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    How did you come to that conclusion? Sounds like speculation. And on top of that, I don't see how it's relevant to what either of us have just posted.

    I know exactly what I'm talking about, because not only have I taught people on certain things before, but I've also performed teaching observations for a PGCE as well as helped out during workshops, and not only that, but my sister is a geography teacher who's got a masters in education and she's filled me in a lot on the psychological side to teaching. One thing I did learn is that running the place like a boot camp does not turn out as well as you'd think. There is also a big difference between discipline and berating people.

    So now we circle back round to the simple fact that though you might benefit from someone saying you're work is a load of shit, others might not. It's an opinion and preference things. Though, personally, from your 'big boy pants' comment, I think you're highly arrogant and have some kind of chip on your shoulder were you feel the need to prove your abilities by regurgitating a bunch of knowledge you read in a theory book, but that's just my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2015
  11. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    Considering your attitude toward people (myself and others) who demonstrably have more knowledge on the subject than you, it's not a hard leap to make.

    Oh, man! Why didn't you say your sister teaches geography! That totally changes everything! It's pretty clear that qualifies you to talk about the best ways to teach people.

    But who said anything about running a class like a boot camp? Harsh criticism does not military philosophy make. Again, it's pretty clear you don't have much experience with creative education, or workshoping, because most of what your railing against is a salient feature of the creative process.

    Interesting. I'd say you're hiding a massive inferiority complex, and work as hard as you can to convince people that you're on "another level" while you're terrified they'll find out that you don't know what you're talking about. And when you're confronted by people who do actually have experience, your strategy is to attack all the theory and practice in the hope it'll make you seem smart.

    But in my opinion, you really have no clue what's going on, or how to quantify good technique from bad. Which is really what this thread is about.

    There are ways to quantify poor writing, and since we're using 50 Shades of Grey as an example we can go with that here. Because the book contains nearly no plot elements. The stuff you learned about in grade school is entirely absent. There's no pacing, no rising action. The climax (if it can be called that) comes on the last four pages, and nothing is answered. The characters display no motivation other than a desire for sex, and rely on the flimsiest excuses to make the plot work.

    I think it's easy to look at the books critical failure as a sign that there are objectively poor elements. No one is rushing to defend James, quite the opposite. If no one can come up with an subjective reason the book is good, I feel safe saying the book is objectively bad.
     
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  12. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    RESOLVED: That the reproductive-member measuring contest between certain individuals in this thread should be taken to PM.

    All in favor?
     
  13. AsherianCommand

    AsherianCommand Active Member

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    I

    I mean otherwise this thread will only get closed by the topic. :/
     
  14. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Yep. You end up seeing a thread with a bunch of people getting closed because two people can't carry on a reasonable discussion. Too bad threads can't be locked by member instead of just locked generally.
     
  15. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    Okay, I'll settle down. Just got a little carried away there for . . . 18 hours.
     
  16. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    The existence of writing skills is separate from who might be an authority on said skills.

    If there are no skills, how does anyone learn writing?

    And regardless of the ultimate authority, generally there is a consensus about those skills.
     
  17. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Seconded. The Wreys have it. Motion carried. No other votes are needed.
     
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  18. The Mad Regent

    The Mad Regent Senior Member

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    So ... it is speculation, since you've just stated that you have demonstrated more knowledge on the subject than me, except I can't see it? There is barely anything on this thread that I didn't either already knew, or had considered before. The truth is, you have no idea what I know, and it's therefore speculation.

    Well, yeah ... when someone you're close to is a teacher, and you've talked to them extensively about it, then one would think they'd know what they're talking about? It's simple logic. Again, that just made you sound completely arrogant.

    Who said anything about boot camps? You did, when you claimed that harsh and blunt criticism is the most useful method to improve peoples 'creative process.' Personally, I think it would be so much more rational to approach a creative process with questions. Why did you character do that here? Don't you think he might feel something else? Get the person you're supplying feedback to thinking, using their intelligence. Don't just say, this is not good, characters seem dull, go back and rewrite it like this (MY WAY, basically. i.e. one-dimensional.)

    From the sound of it, you've been fed into someone's method of the 'creative education' process and now think that that method is gospel, when the truth is, there are many methods to creativity, which is exactly why people who have barely even been educated can still bang out great pieces of art.

    Well considering I didn't even post in this thread for the first half of it, despite looking by at the posts, I wouldn't exactly call that a inferiority complex to convince people. I give my suggestions or opinions as clearly as I can to avoid panning someone's work, because unlike you, sometimes there are great things hidden beneath bad prose that I might not pick up at first. As I said earlier in this post, there are two sides to quality writing: what you write, and how you write it. I don't attack theory, but I also don't blindly accept it. I look at it, understand it, and take it into consideration, but I don't say ... that's right and that's wrong.

    Well, I'm glad that it's just your opinion. :superagree:

    Yeah, and everything you've said there clearly constitutes as great writing. Not that I'm an advocate of 50 Shades of Grey, but I think there is probably more to it than that ... just maybe. Try looking beyond the mechanics and technique, but since you know all about the 'creative education' side, I'm sure you already knew this.
     
  19. carsun1000

    carsun1000 Active Member

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    8 pages on how to critique someone's work. I read all eight pages, learned one or two things, but I also have a headache. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Everything can be objective to some, and subjective to others. Two novelists don't have to write the same and still be successful. At least this is something that is agreeable with the way this discussion has gone. And please no more member measuring contest.
     
  20. The Mad Regent

    The Mad Regent Senior Member

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    What!?

    Don't do that; I just laid down my special move. :p
     
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  21. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Most sensible suggestion in the whole thread. Happy to declare this thread - officially - CLOSED!

    Abandon Thread Snail.gif
     
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