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  1. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Cuba

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by GingerCoffee, Dec 17, 2014.

    Events unfolding, it's interesting to listen to the partisan language. For example, was Elian Gonzalez "shipped back to Cuba" (Fox News) or reunited with his father (how I see it)?

    Rubio is on now ranting about all the horrors, ignoring the fact nothing has changed in Cuba in 50+ years of the embargo.

    According to Rubio it's a lie that normalizing relations will lead to positive changes in Cuban society even though we have seen that happen in other countries.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  2. EdFromNY
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    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Rubio is pandering to Little Havana. Interestingly, the enmity that the refugees hold for their native land seems to be fading with subsequent generations. What is frightening is the degree of misinformation that continues to be generated about Cuba. Remember all the terrible things that were predicted for Elian Gonzalez if he returned to Cuba? Never happened. Fidel Castro was a lot smarter than that. Elian Gonzalez became a national hero.

    This thaw is long, long, long overdue. It's amazing that it's gone on as long as it has. And we're not done, yet. Neither the travel restriction nor the embargo can be lifted without an act of congress, and with the Republicans holding both houses, I just don't see that happening any time soon. Maybe we can at least end the abominable policy of "wet foot, dry foot".
     
  3. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    I think this is wonderful. It's about time your government got over it's ill feelings toward Socialism. Maybe, soon, your politicians will actually learn the real definition of the word?
     
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  4. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    It's about time.
     
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  5. minstrel
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    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Unlikely. :(

    The Republicans will keep defending this stupid embargo because over the decades it has been so successful at, uh, something or other. (I'm reminded of the line humor columnist Dave Barry had years ago: Suggested motto for the CIA: "Proudly overthrowing Fidel Castro since 1962!")

    It is blindingly obvious that the embargo accomplishes zero. What horrible consequences will result if it is lifted?
     
  6. EdFromNY
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    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    @Lemex, I wouldn't count on it.

    I think this is a great first step, but it IS only a first step.

    Cubans helped finance the American Revolution and fought in the field (all along the Gulf Coast). We repaid them by refusing to guarantee their independence (1826), ignoring one war for independence (1868-1878), co-opting a second one against their wishes (1898), occupying their country (1899-1900), grabbing a piece of it for ourselves (1899-present), perverting their sovereignty with the Platt Amendment (1901-1934), propping up various corrupt regimes (1901-1959) and hamstringing their economy after shaping it solely as an American feeder market. Helluva way to repay a favor.
     
  7. GingerCoffee
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    I think the Republicans will indeed harp and harp and harp about that horrible Obama who is trashing the Constitution. After all, it's all about campaign fundraising. Hopefully though, it won't be politically popular among any but the already confirmation-biased base. Obama's actions will be popular with the majority.

    Jan 2014
     
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  8. outsider
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    outsider Contributing Member Contributor

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    Not sure Castro's socialism can be described thus either mind.:rolleyes:
     
  9. EdFromNY
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    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    I don't actually think socialism, per se, was ever the issue.
     
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  10. GingerCoffee
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    Holy Cow. Now the Republikers are claiming this will embolden the terrorists. :rolleyes:

    There seems to be a decent comparison of the two, communism and socialism here:
    Communism vs Socialism
    Like most countries, Cuba is not a pure system of either.
     
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  11. GingerCoffee
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    The issue was always, private holdings were nationalized and the US tried to defend private property. The problem is, like in Chile, Vietnam, and dozens of other countries, defending private, mostly big business interests often meant ignoring the plight of the poor.

    But that may be opening a can of worms that won't do well on this forum, even in the debate room. Despite the fact I'm guilty myself of fueling that aspect of the discussion, I think I'll try to keep to the current reactions to Obama's actions. Feel free to remind me I said this when I fall off the wagon. ;)
     
  12. GingerCoffee
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    It would appear the UK has taken this approach for a while now.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/world/cuba
     
  13. EdFromNY
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    It goes way beyond that, to the amount of American private holdings there were in Cuba in the first place, starting even before their War for Independence, which the US hijacked and parlayed into virtual economic (and, for three decades, political) annexation. The record on this is crystal clear, whether the pols (or anyone here on the forum) want to admit it or not. When Castro condemned American imperialism, it wasn't just rhetoric.

    The record of the US in Cuba isn't about "ignoring the plight of the poor". It's about ignoring the very sovereignty an Act of Congress (signed into law by the President) had pledged to protect, a pledge confirmed by the Treaty of Paris of 1898 (signed by the President and ratified by the Senate) and later violated by maintaining a army of occupation in Cuba for two years, threatening to keep it there indefinitely if Cuba did not accept the Platt Amendment to its Constitution.
     
  14. Fitzroy Zeph
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    I was just reading the NYT; there seems to be a lot of people wanting to maintain the status quo of isolation or whatever you call it.
     
  15. GingerCoffee
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    Yes, mostly Republicans (though definitely not all Republicans) and some of the older crowd that were weaned on anti-Castro pablum.

    NPR: Polls Show Cuban-American Views On U.S.-Cuba Relations Are Nuanced
    Strongest argument for change: If the embargo hasn't worked in 50+ years, what makes one think it eventually will?
     
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  16. EdFromNY
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    Whenever Fidel Castro dies, I have no doubt that Rick Rubio or some other of his ilk will stand up in Congress and declare, "You see? The embargo worked!"
     
  17. GingerCoffee
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    Marco Rubio, not Rick, but yeah, they'll say we won because we never gave in or something.

    Alan Gross gave his two cents essentially saying the Cuban people are great. I see no reason why should we punish them.
     
  18. EdFromNY
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    Sorry. Freudian slip, I guess.
     
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  19. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    It's the result of possibly unconscious psychic energy that you have been most likely repressing.

    ... sorry, I've been reading Freud lately, and it does funny things to your head :p
     
  20. EdFromNY
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    Or my reaction to the current state of New York basketball.
     
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    Or football.
     
  22. GingerCoffee
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    Mainstream news: mostly political rhetoric, including 'balance' by having Republicans who are in favor of ending the embargo and angry ranters on to shout about the lack of freedom in Cuban politics.

    Democracy Now: Actual news about the situation, the background of things like what the prisoners were convicted of here and in Cuba, the issues with the upcoming American continent summit coming up in Panama, and issues with Cuba being on the terrorist watch list.

    http://www.democracynow.org/
    They don't have the transcript up yet but you can watch the whole program online if you have an hour. The transcripts will be up later today.

    The prisoners in both countries were related to USAID activities (meaning they were spies, ours and Cuba's). Cuban Americans were trying to incite revolution against Castro and Cuba claims the spies in the US were only trying to uncover the American spies in Cuba. The US admitted the spy in the Cuban prison helped the US find the Cuban spies in the US.

    The Pan American summit coming up in 2015 was an issue because R. Castro was to be invited and the US would have had to boycott if he was included.

    http://www.thepanamericanpost.com/2014/09/panama-to-invite-cuba-to-2015-summit-of.html
    One of the anti-Obama ranters on the mainstream news claimed this was the reason for Obama's "concessions" to Cuba.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2014
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    Who wants flies?
     
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    There is no football in New York.
     
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