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Units of measurements?

  1. Yay

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  2. Nay

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  3. Rogue One is better than Force Awakens

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  1. Jun

    Jun Member

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    Units of measurements - yay or nay?

    Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by Jun, Apr 17, 2017.

    I must admit I'm rather stuck at the moment on attempting to decide whether or not I should make specific units for my world. So it is a fantasy setting that is rather more "alien" than our real world.
    By alien I mean different. Elements that make the setting different from our real world can be a double-edged blade in my opinion. For instance, the night sky having 2 or more moons. To the reader, it gives the sense of a completely new and fresh world, with new wonders to explore and see in the setting. To the skeptics, it seems unrealistic and too many implications in order to make it "legitimate" (for instance, a planet with 2 moons would have a VERY different tidal wave cycle than ours... not to mention everything else that has anything to do with... well, gravity ha... ha....).

    So I'm wondering with units of measurements. Like feet, inches, meters, yards, pounds, kilograms, etc etc. In my setting, canonically a unique measurement system does exist. However, whether or not I should include it... I'm not too certain. I'll have to include an appendix or something in the end with definitions for every measurement system I use but most importantly, I'm afraid it'll distract the reader from the current scene.
    For instance, if a sentence were to read:
    "The crevice must have been more than 15 feet wide, surely he wasn't going to attempt jumping across it."
    The reader will instantly understand the distance and manage to construct the scene in the end. However, if I wrote:
    "The crevice must have been more than 8 bo wide, surely he wasn't going to attempt jumping across it."
    The reader will either be forced to memorize the unit of bo beforehand, look it up in the back before returning to the scene or just try to piece in what 1 bo must be like before moving on.

    tldr: units of measurements, yay or nay?
     
  2. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    When you want the reader to identify with a measurement, I don't think that you can use a coined unit. However, I also don't think that using our own units is going to work either.

    "The crevice was at least two, perhaps three, times a man's height. Surely he wasn't going to attempt jumping across it."

    You could use anatomical measurements--hands, for example. I guess one question is why you need measurements? Can you offer some more examples of where you need to use them?
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
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  3. Jun

    Jun Member

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    Well, overall generally was what I thought. I'm not done writing this story (probably won't be done for a very long time) but I'm most certain there will be many places where units of measurement will be used.

    I do like your suggestion of using anatomical metaphors for most situations but there are going to be parts where actual numbers matter. For instance, there will be some times when characters will be talking about distances over a map. Or need to weigh the amount of grain they bought at the market. (Grain can be counted either by weight or volume too - canonically in my setting they would be using volume mostly)
     
  4. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Hmm. Distances could be the classic days of travel. Grain, wagons or barrels. Weight...you could pick something relatively intuitive, though nothing immediately comes to mind.

    In general, I'm suggesting that your units be based on elements of the world, rather than coined words.
     
  5. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    I have vague plans to use a created measurement system in my sf project. Can't say if it's a good idea or not, but I'm going to give it a shot. I reckon the way to pull it off is by picking a base unit that's analogous enough to an existing one - for instance, if I said "She was on the short side, only about five XYZ tall," people familiar with the imperial system would probably figure out that an XYZ is about a foot. I intend to use a more standardized system akin to metric, with familiar prefixes, eg a decaXYZ or a kiloXYZ.

    But I don't find that I measure things specifically in my writing, so I don't think it's something that's going to come up much? I'd just find references to inches, feet, and yards kind of anachronistic in a far-future space-faring setting. I'm more inclined to say something like Chicken's example and compare things than cite specific numbers. To be fair, I'm also planning on making a conlang for this project that probably won't be used much either, so that's me. If it's worth doing it's worth overdoing, right?
     
  6. Jun

    Jun Member

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    Hmm.... I see. Coined terms are indeed a bit of a... sore thumb for those who don't understand them. Hence why I'm discussing it here. But I do appreciate your idea of using elemental terms, theoretically it is applicable in just about anything.
     
  7. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I also wonder if you're assuming that you need more precision than you really do? If the characters buy/sell a "wagon" of grain, you don't need to know precisely how many pounds that is, right? And the same for travel distance, etc.? In a roleplaying game, you'd want some precision, but in a novel, I'm inclined to think not.
     
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  8. Jun

    Jun Member

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    I think you are right for the most part. However, there are parts where I think I may want official precision. Like for example, when a merchant is negotiating about something. Just vaguely saying "I've got three carts full of wheat..." seems a little... unprofitable. Cart sizes and amount of grain that can be loaded can vary from region to region and such. Just like the reason why standard units of measurements were invented and used in reality. I think in history, first standard units of measurements were being used as far back as 4th millennia BC.

    Well, I don't mind the extra work from overdoing, my primary concern is whether or not it'll be acceptable (so to speak) from the audience. And so far I'm getting the impression that it isn't too friendly to the reader.
     
  9. Bill Chester

    Bill Chester Active Member

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    How about an asterisk beside the first mention of units, which you have given in Metric.

    In the footnote: All Ferfalgian units have been converted to Metric. See Appendix 3 for a comprehensive chart of unit conversions.
     
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  10. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Add another voice to those wondering whether you'll really need this kind of precision - I hear what you're saying about a merchant negotiating for grain, but do you really need a scene in which a merchant negotiating for grain is important?

    I'm trying to think of an example when I, as a reader, needed to know the precise height/weight/length/width of anything in fiction, and I really can't think of it. This means you can either leave the numbers out entirely (probably my preference) or use a made-up measure ("made the Kessel run in less than twelve parsecs") that is understood by the reader because of context.

    So, for your crevasse-jumping example, you could either leave out measurement entirely - "No one could jump that far--could they?" or use a made-up measure that is clear by context - "It's at least four secbars wide, you fool! You can't jump that far!".

    If you're going to use real measurements, I'd add a caution about considering your audience and also your pseudo-time period. Wagons of grain makes it sound like this is a back-in-time story, so you might want to use back-in-time measurements, rather than, say, litres or kilograms. If it were a forward-in-time story I'd suggest some version of the metric system rather than imperial - most of the world has switched, after all, and when I read a futuristic novel that uses imperial measures I definitely roll my eyes - are you suggesting that the Global Space Exploration Team of 2250 is using a measurement system that was archaic in 2017?
     
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  11. newjerseyrunner

    newjerseyrunner Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Just to clarify something in the physics, two moons would not necessarily change the tides too much. Earth's moon is a monster (5th biggest in the solar system,) but most moons tend to only be a few kilometers across. If you put either of Mars' moons in a resonance with our own moon, you'd never notice a difference in the tides.
     
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  12. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

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    I kind of discourage you from using some artificial units of measurements as this is likely to be confusing, if not irritating, to the reader, as he/she struggles to remember what a bo is.

    I just finished an historical fiction piece, set 2000 years ago, and could have used Latin or Chinese terms: libra for pound, for example. I felt that would be unnecessary, especially since Latin units for gallons, pounds, feet, miles, and so forth are approximately the same as modern US/British units. So that is what I called them, and that will be instantly understood by the readers. I am not, after all, writing in Latin, so why should I introduce Latin terms unless they are relevant? The one time when I introduced a foreign term was the Chinese unit li, about 400 yards (by various measures). I introduced this term, because my Romans and their party had begun to acquire some proficiency in Chinese, and besides had a translator. There was a moment of confusion, relevant to the story, until they realized they really were 9000 li or about 1800 miles from the next destination (and Rome some considerable distance beyond that), as they pieced a thousand paces into yards (2000 yards).

    Don't try to impress your readers with the effort you put into your research or your world building, impress them with your story and your characters.
     
  13. Robert Musil

    Robert Musil Comparativist Contributor

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    Personally, I don't find that sentence too hard to parse. It's very clear from context that a bo is a unit of length, and that 8 of them is some distance which is close to the line between "jumpable" and not--the narrator thinks about jumping, after all, so it can't be like, half a mile. But the narrator also doesn't have to think much to realize it's not jumpable. So if you asked me to estimate how far 8 bo was I'd probably say something like 10-15 feet.

    That's all without any other reference to a bo, or any other contextualizing description or dialogue.

    But, it all depends on the effect you want to have. Having it in bo instead of feet is an alienating device--even though we can figure it out from context, it still is a unit that nobody really knows precisely what it is (I don't think a bo is an IRL unit of measure, but maybe it is). So the reader will necessarily feel a bit put off or disoriented, but not too much--which, if that's what you're going for, hey great. And if you refer to bo in other contexts throughout the work, the reader may slowly gain a more distinct impression of what it is, which (again, speaking personally) is always a fun experience, that traveling from "slightly mystified" to "I kinda know how this world works now".

    If it's not what you're going for, others above me have suggested many very good ways of changing things--use some kind of anthropomorphic, universally-relatable measure ("as wide as the height of two tall men", or whatever), or just don't quantify the distance at all, or add more contextualizing description/dialogue.

    Whatever you decide to do, please know that Rogue One was far superior to The Force Awakens. That's all.
     
  14. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    A parsec is a real unit. It's an observable parallax of one arc-second: about 3.2 light-years I think. Of course, in context it sounds like Han Solo is referring to a parsec as a unit of time, unless their space travel involves shortening real distances somehow. I was going to use that as an example of how even Star Wars uses real measurements (that and meters when talking about the infamous exhaust port on the Death Star). If you need to convey distance i would stick to regular units. Else you'll need to explain what the made up unit is.
     
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  15. newjerseyrunner

    newjerseyrunner Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    You man want to have your characters use those terms.

    To me
    "The crevice must have been more than 8 bo wide, surely he wasn't going to attempt jumping across it."
    doesn't really work, but
    "The crevice must have been more than 8 bo wide, surely I wasn't going to attempt jumping across it."
    works fine.
     
  16. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I did not know it was a real unit... but I still understood the scene! It may as well have been fictional, for me and I assume for most other viewers, since we didn't know it was real. And, honestly, in this case it sounds like it might have been a better idea to use a totally fictional one, since it must be confusing to those who do know what it means to try to fit it into that context...
     
  17. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I know, right? I'm still trying to figure out what the hell Han was talking about... :confused:
     
  18. newjerseyrunner

    newjerseyrunner Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    This is a very real affect of special relativity. The faster you go, the shorter the universe is. The distance contracts by the Lorentz factor, which is 1/sqrt(1-(v*v/c*c))
     
  19. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I know, right? I'm still trying to figure out what the hell Han was talking about... :confused:
     
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  20. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Well, duh :D. Sorry, too early for relativity for me. Catch me later around cocktail time.
     
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  21. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    To clarify, I agree that the characters may need some precision. I'm saying that the reader doesn't. If you use "barrels" as a unit of large measurement, you don't have to tell the reader that a barrel is 1.647 cubic meters. Similarly, you may decide that a "flask" is 1.7 liters, but there's no need to ever tell the reader that.
     
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  22. Jun

    Jun Member

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    Thank you all for great contributions, this really was worth talking about for me. Picked up some really good advice.
     
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