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  1. TheWingedFox

    TheWingedFox Banned

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    I took a crazy gamble and published on KDP without anyone else reading it first.

    Discussion in 'Electronic Publishing' started by TheWingedFox, Aug 20, 2018.

    Okay, first of all, I work at Amazon. But as a security supervisor. However, I did get a chance to meet with some authors who use KDP at our office in London, so that impelled me to have a go. Nobody at the office, barring my closest colleagues, know about it. Nope, not even the Kindle bods up on the xth floor.

    I am not a good writer. That's the truth. However, I hope to improve. And that, I believe, is the crux of the vocation. I love quality literature (Emily Fridlund, DBC Pierre, David Mitchell (no relation), Robert J Crane). My hope is that, after ten years of struggling away, honing my craft, penniless, on my death bed, I can say that someone read my book and thought it was 'quite good'.

    So, I worked on this project, born in my crazy mind, for less than a year, no beta readers, self-edited. As it's related to the 'Mexican wall', I wanted it to get out there asap.

    I don't come here often. Nor do I social media much. I've become quite the recluse, although I'm in charge of a team of guards and interact fine and dandy with Amazonians every day. Yes, we do call them that.

    In a period of insanity, I decided to get the manuscript up to a standard I thought was okay - not amazing, just okay - and rushed it through the whole KDP process.

    Picture me, in the belly of the beast (Amazon), sitting in the security office with my manager, him jabbering away like the Cockney he is (I'm Scottish, we enjoy jocular battles), while fiddling with the tricky paperback-formatting templates. Isn't that what every writer dreams of..? Isn't it...? :)

    There are many reasons why I did what I done did. One of them is that I can. Anyone can self-publish.

    Even Donald Trump.

    Now I'm working on other shiz, and through all this, I've learned about the mechanics of the operation. And, boy...is it an operation! Doris Lessing would have been so lost.

    My security job absorbs a lot of my time (I'm having to turn down a promotion just so I can focus on writing), and the rest of my life is writing and washing clothes, vacuuming, etc. I have no partner nor children.

    So I probably won't be back for a while. I don't have internet access at home. And I try to stay focused on writing.

    So that's my story.

    Peace, out.

    [link deleted]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2018
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  2. Krispee

    Krispee Contributor Contributor

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    Well, I wish you good fortune in your endeavors, hope it works out for you and you at least get some sales, and perhaps some feedback - always good to get decent, quality feedback. To be honest none of us are good writers, certainly not at first, and the best we can hope for is to improve with hard work. That's the one thing we all have in our arsenal, universally, we can all work.
    So, here's to hard work and peace to you too. :agreed:
     
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  3. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    To me putting a book out without any real editing isn't a gamble … a gamble implies you can win.

    Thousands, if not tens of thousands of people do what the OP has done … its what gives self publishing a bad name. In general they sell to their friends and family, and then the book tanks.

    I agree that anyone can self publish , but for the love of god do it propperly
     
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  4. Edward M. Grant

    Edward M. Grant Contributor Contributor

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    My best selling novel is one I had to write and publish in less than three months to hit a deadline. So I wrote it, cleaned it up, published it and sold a decent number of copies (by my admittedly low standards, where a hundred sales a month is a pretty good month). No-one ever complained about it.

    Oh, and it was regularly near the top of the Amazon best-seller list in its category (it's not on Amazon at the moment because reasons). On at least one occasion it was the best selling book in that category that wasn't just a romance in drag.

    I agree, though, many writers do throw out books that they should never have published in the state they're in. But those writers were never going to turn it into a good book by editing, because they lack the skills and experience to do so. And the books don't sell and vanish into the swamp of multi-million rankings on Amazon.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
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  5. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    To be honest good editing with a good editor will make any book better - when I say editing I mean working with va proper editor not just retyping it yourself
     
  6. Edward M. Grant

    Edward M. Grant Contributor Contributor

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    Maybe. But most of the really bad self-published books couldn't be edited into good books without effectively hiring the editor to ghost-write. It's the mediocre ones that might benefit from a bit of editing.

    And I can think of one bad self-published book I own that would lose all its appeal if it was edited. The only reason to read it is because the writer is batsh*t crazy (it basically reads like Twilight rewritten by a 12-year-old girl).
     
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  7. Krispee

    Krispee Contributor Contributor

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    I guess that's the thing here isn't it, whether the book was any good to start with, although I do agree that extra eyes on a prospective novel is always good. The OP was never going to do all that anyway, he got what he wanted, whether the book sold or not, or was any good or not. Whether we agree with him didn't come into his thinking. What are your goals to start with, perhaps is the question?
     
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  8. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    There's also the question of what's a "good" editor. I see a lot of authors claiming their books have been edited and then I look at the books and see endless errors... so if the book was actually "edited", it was done by someone with no idea what s/he was doing.
     
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  9. Edward M. Grant

    Edward M. Grant Contributor Contributor

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    Yes, I've seen a few writers gushing about how their self-published book was edited by a real editor, then read the first few pages of the book and... not been impressed. I've also seen some trade-published writers complain that the editor their publisher assigned to them made horrible changes to their book, while other writers say their editor did improve it.
     
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  10. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I've always enjoyed working with the editors my publishers have provided, but none of them have ever "changed" one of my books without my agreement. Editing was always more of a "they suggest, I agree or disagree" program.

    And there are definitely great editors working with self-published authors. There are just others who apparently aren't that great (or who are figments of the self-published author's imagination, maybe?).
     
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  11. Edward M. Grant

    Edward M. Grant Contributor Contributor

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    From what I remember, in one case the writer said she and the editor agreed on the changes to the book and the writer made those changes... then the editor made more changes of their own to the manuscript that was supposed to have been the final version for print. So by the time the writer discovered that, it was far too late to do anything about it.

    She said she was glad when she eventually got the rights back years later, and was able to release the version that was supposed to have been published in the first place.
     
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  12. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Well, editors are one of those things... It's one of those, "You don't know what you don't know" kinda thing. If you knew the trade well and how to write and what to look for etc, you'd probably be trade published in the first place with an assigned professional editor. If you didn't, then you may not know what makes a good editor to begin with.

    Imagine, if you knew a thing or two about plot structures, your own plot structure would probably be half decent. Thus you can also tell when an editor has half decent advice to give you regarding it. And you'd be looking for this skill set.

    And if you didn't know a thing, then you also can't look for it, thus can't tell the fakes from the pros.
     
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  13. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Sure you can. I know jack about plumbing, but I can still hire a good plumber. I get recommendations, check their references, speak to other satisfied customers, and get several quotes
    Same for editors - plus in the writing field there are forums like this where you can do research.
    (Not to mention that the OP allegedly works for Amazon... that's a serious in to self publishing know how which it is bonkers not to take)
     
  14. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I get you and Cave Troll mixed up - are you the one that wrote Rapax? Did you have an editor for that? Are you satisfied with the work?
     
  15. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    This has been my experience as well. I usually wind up agreeing with and making most of the suggested changes, but there's plenty of others that I disagreed with and left in the manuscript as is. I get one final draft just before publication to approve, so I would be able to see if anything was in there that I hadn't agreed to.
     
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  16. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    Well I didn't write that, so it must have been someone else.
    Mine is the one with a skull biting a bullet on it.
    :superidea:
     
  17. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Not really if I'm honest - I'm satisfied with the plot, characterisation etc but not with the number of typos that are still in the manuscript (That's not my editors fault, I paid for a structural edit). I learnt the hard way that you can't do your own proof reading. The formatting also went all to shit through D2D as they took out all the line breaks separating scenes

    I'm about to update the manuscript with one that's been through a professional proof read as well as being formatted in vellum to remove the problems with the breaks, and has a pro cover on it

    (incidentally we aren't supposed to pick on each others work like this - which is why I'm not going to respond in kind - although you have (I assume trad published) books which could stand to go see an editor again)
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
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  18. Krispee

    Krispee Contributor Contributor

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    I was going to say, isn't this about the OP's decision and post here? Not that he's going to read all this for a while, from what he's described.
     
  19. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Yeah you're right - top tip if you have someone on ignore don't have a look what they've said, it will only piss you off
     
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  20. Krispee

    Krispee Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah, that's a fair point.
     
  21. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    It's true research will help, but it's still no guarantee really. Plenty of people get overcharged for shitty work when it comes to this stuff like plumbing, reconstructions, flooring, wiring etc. If you don't know the right questions, sometimes you can't get the kind of illuminating answers you might need. Basically, if it was that easy to weed out the fakes, people wouldn't get tricked. The internet, in this sense, is both a pro and a con. But I agree with you there're certain measures you can take to help lower the risk of getting tricked.

    I'm not seeing how working for Amazon, and in security no less, is gonna help you self-publish. Their book business is a tiny part of their business. I think right now the big thing is AWS (don't ask me what it stands for) but it's some cloud storage thing they have. Offices are also split into corporate and warehouse (tip: don't work at the warehouses but the corporate offices are pretty nice). My husband works at Amazon as their IT engineer and so he pretty much knows everyone across the office (everyone has computer problems, after all) and I've never heard him mention anything about a publishing dept. It might exist, but I'm not aware of it.
     
  22. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I didn't pick on it. I asked if you were satisfied. And the problem would have been with your editor's work, not yours.

    If we're saying editors help get rid of errors, it's useful to have something to back that up with. Feel free to have a look at the editing of my published books if you think they'll contribute anything to the discussion.
     
  23. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    But ' I might hire a shitty plumber' isn't a reason not to hire a plumber at all, nor it is it a reason to replumb your house yourself despite having no idea what you are doing.

    Because it gives you a chance to talk to people who know what they are talking about ... I must admit I missed the security bit, but still... doesn't amazon have company newsletters, intranet etc
    where different staff can connect ?
     
  24. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    You had a passive aggressive pop at me in the way that you asked... I'm not going to sink to your level by replying in kind.

    I find Julianne, my editor, incredibly useful in helping close plot holes, find problems with characterisation, setting, things that needed more research etc ... she doesn't do typos because that's not what I'm paying her for.

    Rapax however is a classic example of why doing it yourself is a bad idea - I naively thought I could save money and not have it professionally proof read, I was wrong. Having subsequently paid for a pro proof read a number of things (in the region of 35-40) that I should have caught before publication have been highlighted and will shortly be corrected in the updated manuscript.

    My process now is 1st draft - self edit - alpha read - second edit - editor - third edit - proof reader - last edit - format - beta reader/arc - another edit if necessary - publish. (and quite possibly manuscript revisions if there are still things to pick up)

    I stand by my original comment that putting a book out with no editing is not a gamble, since there's no real possibility of it succeeding - its also not the rare and wondrous thing the OP seems to think it is, since it happens all the time
     
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  25. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Publishing a book you know, or should know, is crap is not only a disservice to potential readers but also to all of the other self-published writers on Amazon.
     
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