Damsel in Distress?

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Similyn, Jan 16, 2012.

  1. Similyn

    Similyn New Member

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    I'm not forgetting it. But as I see it, feminists can be totally over the top, just as blacks and gays could be. I'm not ignoring the fact they we've all had a rough history, but I also think they take things to the extreme and can be just way too sensitive about the subjects.

    Where I live, for example, once a year the gay people hold a parade to show off their 'gay pride'. Now, I have no problem with them being proud to be who they are. However, what if heterosexuals held a parade to show how proud they were to be heterosexual? Or what if there is a channel on tv these days that showed movies for 'whites' only like there is one for blacks only?

    We've overcome many of our histories mistakes, and to me, it's just throwing it in everyones face to keep bringing it up again and again and again.... I'm not saying to forget it. I'm just saying it's become too...pc and not...um...'honest' is the best word I can come up with right now.

    Does that make sense?
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    I can understand your viewpoint now, and I can see why you came to that conclusion.

    However,

    I am not the smartest tool in the shed; but here is how my simple mind interpreted the piece:

    First my chef instincts kicked in and I was like, "Yeah! Wild boar! Kill that shit! Salt pork for days!"

    Then more chef instincts came into play when the mangoes fell and I was like, "Awe! Mangoes are delicious don't leave those!"

    Then she ran off the bluff and I was like, "Well that sucks balls; you dumb dumb."

    Then Felipe described the smell of the quick sand and I couldn't help but think to myself, "Gross--I would be puking all over the place."

    Then while she kept sinking I could not help but go, "Yeah, yeah, homeboy that just went into the forest is about to swoop in and save her." (so I guess I can understand the cliche part you mentioned at least)

    Then after she got pulled out, and he noticed that she was attractive--my male instincts kicked into gear, "Yeah! Get you some Montoya!"

    So as you can see my inner dialogue is rather, well, for lack of a better word--very, "Californian." Haha.

    I hope my inner dialogue helped you understand why I didn't read any racism or chauvinistic qualities between the lines.

    I realize now after reading this you will either think I am the stupidest person alive or you got a few laughs. :p

    But oh well, I thought honesty worked best in this situation, since you helped me understand your view.
     
  3. Kallithrix

    Kallithrix Banned

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    Well, they couldn't build a Disney World in the UK - we actualy have REAL castles here, not pink plastic ones :D
     
  4. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    Damn you!

    http://nooooooooooooooo.com/

    :p
     
  5. arron89

    arron89 Banned

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    No, not really. You seem to think that women and gays and ethnic minorities are all treated perfectly equally now, and we should all just get over things and move on. Which would be great, but for that to work, everyone needs to think that way, and they really, really don't. Gay pride parades originated decades ago, during a time when coming out at the wrong place or to the wrong person could easily be a death sentence, when even the police seemed to think it was okay to beat and abuse these people. BET was launched in 1980 because mainstream programming was dominated by white, middle class protagonists that black people often didn't relate to. White heterosexual people don't have to fight just to be who they are, there are no racist misconceptions or barriers to a white person's professional or cultural development, there is no stigma about heterosexuality.

    You might be sick of minorities fighting for equality, but as long as that inequality exists, you're gonna have to tolerate it.
     
  6. arron89

    arron89 Banned

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    Haha, well, there may be a market for this book yet :p
     
  7. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    I consider myself a feminist, and am usually quite sensitive to these things, but in this case I really don't feel this was obviously racist or chauvinistic, in a sense that it wouldn't get published today. Even today, some men are like that, "old school" manners where they think it is a good idea of referring to a woman as "a little lady" and most women don't feel threatened by this. And even if the character was a chauvinist, as long as there is a good story in it, it doesn't have to be a bad thing at all.
     
  8. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    Haha--I guess you could say I am so, "laid back," it is a fault at times.

    But it's not my fault! The beach is two miles from me. The air is filled with microscopic laid back spores from the palm trees and salt water. I breathe it in daily.
     
  9. arron89

    arron89 Banned

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    Jealuzzzzzzzzz
     
  10. Similyn

    Similyn New Member

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    No, I'm not delusional enough to think that everyone is treated equally. And, yes, I'm tired of hearing about minorities who complain and complain, especially if I think the complaint has been resolved and is over done. But, back to the topic on hand, just because I like a good damsel-in-distress story, doesn't mean I think women aren't capable of taking care of themselves in normal, everyday living. Come to think of it, damsels-in-distress stories are usually of the 'unsual/not normal' kind that goes beyond everyday living.

    A man is held hostage by a bank robber. A man comes in and rescues him. Outdated?
    A man is held hostage by a bank robber. A woman comes in and rescues him. Outdated?
    A woman is held hostage by a bank robber. A woman comes in and rescues her. Outdated?
    A woman is held hostage by a bank robber. A man comes in and rescues her. Outdated?

    It's a potentially good plot point that can make the reader wonder what is going to happen next if well written. Yet only the last example will get criticized for being outdated.
     
  11. arron89

    arron89 Banned

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    There's more to the damsel in distress trope than just 'a woman in trouble'. The women is described as beautiful (objectified by the author and also perhaps by the male protagonist), the woman is entirely passive (the relationship of power is entirely tipped in the man's favour) and the resolution is either implicitly or explicitly sexualised (the female romantically/sexually submits to the male). If we return to Felipe's example, all those elements are present, as they are in many of the more traditional damsel in distress stories (Sleeping Beauty, etc, etc).

    In your example of a woman held hostage, only one of those features is present, and if the woman is able to work with the rescuer to bring about her rescue, then none of them are (unless she's described as beautiful/objectified). Like I said before, the 'damsel in distress' set up is about relations of power more than about individual plot points.
     
  12. Similyn

    Similyn New Member

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    I understand. It seems my own understanding of what 'damsel-in-distress' was not correct. I based it off of what others were claiming to be 'damsel-in-distress' stories which, apparently, they had no idea what they were talking about either, because when I read what they complained about, it didn't have all the attributes you have described above. (Ignore my run-on sentence.)

    Still, I must say that it is a sorry thing to see that just because a woman is beautiful she is 'not allowed' to be in such a situation. Also, a lot of that seems to be subjective on point of view of the readers, seeing as some point out certain books that are criticized for being 'damsel-in-distress' when they don't follow the trope rules.

    On a side note, it's nice to be in a debate where those involved don't resort to personal insults in order to try and win their point. Kudos! :)
     
  13. arron89

    arron89 Banned

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    Kudos us!

    Yeah, 'damsel in distress' has become one of those tropes that everyone is familiar with but most people don't really give too much thought to what it actually constitutes. And I agree that it's sad that beautiful women are so maligned in fiction; basically, they're either damsels in distress or femmes fatales who use their beauty as a weapon :rolleyes:...I wonder which gender is responsible for coming up with those types...
     
  14. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    Republicans!

    Wait, what?

    :rolleyes:
     
  15. Felipe

    Felipe Active Member

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    The "Damsel in distress" plot is still very popular as is evidenced by the millions of love novels that you see on the shelves. The covers are all a variant of a male Fabio look alike, rippling with muscles, shirtless in a male dominant/female submissive pose as is the plot. I don't read these wildly popular books but do read flaps to see what sells and they are mainly all variants of this theme. Even in this day and age, a strong man comes in and either fights her foes or whisks her away from them.

    This type of plot can work well within the proper time period or setting which is why I put up my excerpt, to show that it can work. and yes Arron, you did call me a racist but then went back and edited that part out. This is evidenced by Jhunter commenting on it. Granted, my writing is primitive, as I am, but I should have mentioned that this story is taking place in the early 1600's when slavery and the horrors of it were rampant. To even suggest that I was a racist was wrong of you as this character is freeing slaves, regardless of what viewpoint the masters held, he was a good/bad man, a combination that does appeal to a lot of women, even today. Perhaps the next few paragraphs will clear up his viewpoint and you will see that I am not a racist...


    “I am Juan Carlos Montoya.” He smiled.
    Her eyes went wide, “Are you related to Felipe Montoya the pirate?”
    “Yes.” he replied, “He is my father.”
    “He is legend here among our people. Tales are told at night around the fire how he freed slaves by killing their masters. Even now, some hope to run away and join him, it is the dream of all slaves.”
    “There is no need to run away, I could purchase your freedom if you choose to join us.”
    “You would do this? You just met me.”
    “I have sense about people.” he smiled.
    “And what if my master will not sell me?”
    “I will offer to introduce him to my father.” Juan Carlos said.
    “That should do it.” Naomi said smiling
    “Come then, let us go and purchase your freedom.”


    They walked back through the jungle to the shoreline. Following it they soon came to a large plantation of sugar cane. Workers were in the fields harvesting the cane. Men chopped and bundled it while the women lifted the bundles onto a wagon being pulled by a mule. Naomi shouted and waved at them as they passed, “That is my mother and father.” she said to Juan Carlos, pointing at an older couple working in the sun.

    They approached a large white house with a porch covering the entire front of it. An older man sat at a small table drinking tea watching them approach. A young girl fanned him with a large fan made of thatched leaves. As they climbed the steps he leaned forward, “Naomi? Where are the mangoes I sent you to fetch and who is this?”

    They stepped onto the porch, “I was attacked by a large wild boar. When I ran away, I fell into quicksand and this man saved me.” she said, pointing to Juan Carlos.
    “Well, I thank you for that, would you like some tea?” he asked.
    “No, I have come to purchase Naomi’s freedom.” Juan Carlos said, looking him in the eye.
    “Out of the question, Naomi is not for sale. She is just coming into age, I intend to use her for a breeder and make a lot of money from her offspring.” the man looked away, sipping his tea, “Damn it girl! I am sweating! Fan faster!” he shouted at the young girl.

    Juan Carlos looked at her, she was maybe thirteen and she was sweating profusely from the work. Still, she forced a smile and began to fan faster. The look on her face said it all, she did not want to get a beating, Juan Carlos saw the fear in her eyes.

    “I did not ask you if she was for sale. I said that I have come to purchase her freedom.”

    The man looked at him and noticed that he had his hand on his sword, “Have a seat, please. As I said, she is simply not for sale.”

    Juan Carlos thumped his fingers on the hilt of his sword, “I will say this one more time, and only once. I do not abide by slavery nor do I follow the rules of the king. You will now name your price, any other words from you will be your last.”
    The man looked into Juan Carlos’s eyes, he saw something in them that sent fear into his heart. He swallowed hard, then looked at Naomi, “I will not be threatened on my own property! She is not for sale.”

    “Do you have a weapon? I do not see one.” Juan Carlos said, looking around.
    “What did you ask? If I have a weapon?”
    “Well of course you do not have a weapon, that would mean that you would have to have the courage and skill to use it. I am Juan Carlos Montoya, the son of Felipe Montoya. I hereby free all of your slaves, I will pay for them with your blood.”

    He drew his sword and with one swift stroke, cut the man’s head off. It rolled to the edge of the steps as the young girl covered her mouth and stared with wide eyes. Juan Carlos took a few steps, then kicked the head far out into the yard. Then he turned and walked off of the porch toward the field telling Naomi and the girl to follow him.

    They walked up to her parents, “I am Juan Carlos Montoya, I just purchased all of your freedom. Tell your friends, then come with me.” Naomi and her parents hurried toward the small cabin they shared. A few moments later they emerged with their few clothes tied into a small bundle. They approached him and Naomi’s Father bowed his head.

    “Raise your head, never bow to another man again.” Juan Carlos told him smiling.
    “I am Amos and this is my wife Sarah, we both are indebted to you.” the older man said.
    “No, you are free as God meant for you to be. You can come with me back to my ship or wait here. We are on a mission that could be dangerous, I can pick you up when we return if you wish.” Juan Carlos told him.
    “I will take no chances with my freedom, we will come with you.” Amos smiled.
    They waited for the others, then Juan Carlos said, “Follow me.” he turned and walked toward the road.
     
  16. TheWritingWriter

    TheWritingWriter New Member

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    I think the whole woman needing a man to save her is stupid and overused. It's not fairytale like or romantic at all. But all of my female characters who have gotten into trouble normally always get themselves out of trouble. I don't like to read or write books where the girl just sits there and is helpless and stupid. In fact, I like to write stories where the girl saves the guy.
     
  17. Felipe

    Felipe Active Member

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    In fact, I like to write stories where the girl saves the guy.

    Excellent, I ended book two like this, exactly. All of the women in my books are portrayed as very strong. Naomi turns out to be a hellion.
     
  18. L a u r a

    L a u r a New Member

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    You know what irks me? Books/movies/TV series that center around a wo/man who can fight his/her way through a gang of ripped Spartan men. Mind you, I find many televised fighting scenes cheesy in general...but a girl/guy who can take down ten guys without so much as a battle scar? Please.

    So when it comes to the "damsel in distress" theme...I'm split. As long as the fighting scenes are semi-realistic and the characters have strong personalities, I'm fine. However, if you fall into the trap of Macho Man and Pretty Princess, that's where you lose me.
     
  19. Similyn

    Similyn New Member

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    I suppose it all comes down to opinions and personal likes and dislikes. While I don't mind reading where the girl saves the day on occasion, it feels overused to me these days. I see it all the time and am frankly bored of it.

    In the stories I've written, I've had situations where the girl is able to get herself out of trouble, where she helps the man out of trouble, where the man helps her out of trouble, and where they help each other. It depends on the situation and what feels realistic to me. Never would I have the girl just sit there and do nothing...unless, of course, she were unconscious or something like that.

    Not every woman is going to be able to help herself out of a situation. It's just not realistic and if it happens all the time, it's too much like a superman scenario. Some women are weak. Some men are weak. That's reality.
     
  20. TheWritingWriter

    TheWritingWriter New Member

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    Agreed.

    You're right. It's not realistic. I agree. Some people get really aggravated by unrealistic things thrown into novels. I've found myself throwing a book across the room once going, "That doesn't happen in real life you stupid woman!" Not a fun experience. Especially the trashed book part.

    Also. I reread my post & it seems like I was attempting to be a smart-Alec, and that wasn't my intention. If I came off that way, I apologize.
     
  21. prettyprettyprettygood

    prettyprettyprettygood Active Member

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    Out of curiosity, where are you seeing this being overused, exactly? I don't find enough women 'saving the day' so to speak, in the books and films I read/watch, I'd love some recommendations.
     
  22. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    I don't know about books but "badass women" are all over American TV, Cinema, Comic books and video games.
     
  23. prettyprettyprettygood

    prettyprettyprettygood Active Member

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    Ah perhaps that's it, I don't really go for 'badass' fiction of any type, I was thinking more of 'regular' but strong/intelligent women that solve stuff/save the day (and maybe don't get their tits out)- like Sarah Lund. I'd like to hear about more characters like that- I'm not very good at keeping my finger on the pulse, so I love getting recommendations :p
     
  24. Similyn

    Similyn New Member

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    No worries. I didn't take it that way. Just took it as someone expressing their opinion. :)
     
  25. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust Active Member

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    But that's what defines a "damsel in distress". Ergo, you're not writing about "damsels in distress", you're just writing about women who find themselves in some kind of trouble.

    She's not a "damsel", she's the protagonist and just happens to be a woman.

    "Damsel in distress" is a woman (usually a princess) who is in some sort of "prison" (often metaphorical) and simply waits to be rescued. She's beautiful, "pure", naive, innocent and apparently completely unable to look after herself or take any proactive action towards escaping.

    Female protagonists are not "damsels", perhaps the problem is that some writer's don't make them "strong women", they just try to make them "women in shining armour". And that's a whole different cliche of its own.

    It's perfectly possible to write about a man rescuing a woman without making him a "knight in shining armour" or her a "damsel in distress". You don't need to think in terms of cliches.
     

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