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  1. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Dear GOP, Captain Obvious needs a word with you.

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by GingerCoffee, Jun 2, 2014.

    In case you hadn't noticed, capturing POWs has been a prized target of every insurgent group from Hamas to al Qaeda for more than half a century. Trading prisoners for prisoners is not going to increase the risk to soldiers in Afghanistan or anywhere else.

    How stupid is the target audience you Republikers are speaking to? Do they not recall hundreds of videos of POWs, the publicized beheadings, (surely the target market remembers the beheadings), the millions in ransom asked for and sometimes paid, and reports by former captives of being sold from group to group, captured by the locals, sold to the insurgents?

    Perhaps, dear GOP, the news media which cannot wean themselves off of any scandalous story, faux or not, is misleading you into thinking there is a target market for this latest nonsense. Don't be fooled by that microphone they stick in your face. It doesn't mean anyone believes what you are saying.

    Yes, you have gotten the ignorant Democratic leadership to believe they need to defend the action, saying the POW's health was deteriorating when they should just be telling you, the GOP, that the public is not stupid. Instead of defending a reasonable action, they've gotten the news media sniffing at a new scandal, was the health issue a lie? Is malnutrition going to look like a trumped up medical condition whether it was true or not? Sigh, I suppose that is a victory for you, dear GOP.

    And yes, dear GOP, you are getting lots of face time in the mainstream news who only throw softball questions your way, never once asking you if soldiers can possibly be any more of a target for capture than they already are?

    You know the public will turn on you, we want our soldiers returned. If only the Democratic leaders had any market savvy, they would have known to play up the benefit of other soldiers' confidence knowing they won't be left behind, they matter. If only the Democratic leaders figured out they could sell the narrative that the Taliban prisoners they released won't be able to be effective leaders now, others have taken their place that won't want to let them take over. If they repeated the narrative that those released prisoners were doing more harm as a symbol in Gitmo than they'd do if released. If only the Democratic leaders knew how to play the narrative game.

    But you, dear GOP, know they don't, don't you? You know you can easily switch from the narrative that dealing with hostage takers leads to more hostage taking as the public celebrates the homecoming of this soldier who's been a captive for five long years. You can change emphasis to the release of dangerous men, even though you don't know either what to do with these Gitmo remnants of the GW Bush abuse of power, imprisoning people without due process, calling them enemy combatants though some of them have been shown to be innocent. We need to release or move Gitmo prisoners at some point. You don't want them in the US subject to the light of the judicial system being shone on the travesty of imprisonment without evidence. But to your credit, you've kept that little matter out of the narrative altogether.

    Release of this POW was a win win for Obama and the US. But you know how to sabotage that, don't you? The truth, the facts, common sense, none of that matters when one is skilled at delivering the narrative and one's opponent is not.

    I guess Captain Obvious should have known.
     
  2. thirdwind
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    thirdwind Contributing Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    The way I see it, we got a US soldier back and the five Taliban members will probably be killed in a drone strike later this month.
     
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  3. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    For the sake of my follow non-Americans: GOP means Grand Old Party, and refers to the Republican party. Yeah, I know, it's a new one on me too. I had to google it.
     
  4. EdFromNY
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    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    @GingerCoffee - The Republicans have been, from Day One, invested in only one thing - Obama failing (I know you know that, but I thought I'd mention it). So the return of Bowe Bergdahl has to be attacked...somehow. The desertion angle got zero traction, so the next best thing they have (and it isn't very good) is to try to make it like the deal puts terrorists back in the field. The charge is made with the luxury of never having to answer the question of how would one get Bowe back without the exchange (answer: they couldn't) or what would their reaction have been had Bowe died in captivity (not an unreasonable scenario, since he had engaged in several hunger strikes). It's also made in the cynical knowledge that the press will pick it up (sells more soap).

    The worst aspect to this, in my view, is the prospect of what happens when, at some point, there is a Republican president. I have no doubt that the very Democrats who now decry the Republicans "investing in Obama's failure" will be equally invested in the failure of said Republican.
     
  5. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Sorry, I get in trouble calling them the Republic Party after they have successfully changed the name of the Democratic Party to Democrat Party as far as the news media is concerned after Frank Luntz found out in a focus group the public disliked the name Democrat Party.
     
  6. GingerCoffee
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    And yet when GW Bush's disaster of a Presidency almost ruined this country, the Republics continued the anti-Democratic Party narrative, effectively counter-attacking every legitimate complaint the Democratic Party had against the Bush administration.

    Did the Democratic Party effectively attack Bush? Hardly.

    Obama showed promise in his campaign that he might finally end the bumbling of the liberal narrative, and then he got elected and he's bumbled countering every attack since.

    This is not about whose policies are better. The issue is the GOP understands the power of the message. The public doesn't get a chance to weigh two options. Instead, enough of them are led by the narrative nose that people vote with jerking knees instead of informed thought.
     
  7. GingerCoffee
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    Now we have Bergdahl's fellow soldiers joining in the bashing, saying the guy was a deserter before we have proper information about what actually happened. So much for innocent until proven guilty, the only model needed is the Swift Boat narrative model.
     
  8. GingerCoffee
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    Frank Luntz has Tweeted in and he agrees with Captain Obvious:
    Slate's take on the affair.

    The article spells out the various GOP narratives and is well worth skimming just for the examples they review.
     
  9. EdFromNY
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    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Absolutely true. But I would go further, because the real erosion has been economic, not political (is it me, or am I starting to sound like a Marxist in my old age?) and it started in the early 90s, with the collapse of Soviet hegemony. Until then, post-war fears about communism forced the Republican constituency to protect the middle class, primarily because a healthy and prosperous middle class means a vigorous domestic market for products but also because, as Marx pointed out, a precursor of revolution would be the wasting away of the middle class (oh, dear, I do sound like a Marxist; oh, well...). But with the collapse of Soviet hegemony, communism was proclaimed "discredited" and after half a century, the Republican constituency was finally able to let its guard down.

    The first benefit they proclaimed for all of this was the creation of global markets. What they really meant was a global labor market, where labor was so cheap that the savings more than made up for the costs of producing someplace else and shipping back here. What they didn't tell you was that as more and more jobs were shipped overseas, domestic markets would soften, the US tax base would erode and programs that the vast majority of the country had long ago embraced would be deemed unaffordable - in other words, a systematic lowering of our standard of living and a wasting away of the middle class (no worries there, since communism has now been "discredited"?). Bill Clinton was president when this gained steam, and we will likely never know whether he was ignorant of where it was going, powerless to stop it or willfully complicit, but my suspicion is that the boom of the 90s and the resulting elimination of the deficit was more than ample reward from his perspective.

    The American electorate continues to be its own worst enemy, particularly in the wake of the Citizens United and McPherson decisions. A very solid case can be made for the premise that the Bush family is the single worst plague unleashed on this country in its entire history - and we need look no further than Afghanistan and Iran for the proof. Yet it is starting to look like we could wind up with Bush III in 2016 (if not a Clinton II).
     
  10. GingerCoffee
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    It's not Marxist economics. It's evidence based capitalism that shows one needs some controls to keep the economy from shifting so far out of balance that income inequality spins out of control. At the moment we are spinning out of control. Trickle down doesn't.

    Back to the thread, ay yi yi could it get any worse? Now the poor man's father is being called a Taliban supporter. Are they serious? He was desperate to get his son back and vowed not to shave until the son was released, he learned some Afghan words to give his son comfort.

    These political hacks don't care who they hurt or how much as long as they get their propaganda narratives out there.

    Innocent until we actually know what happened anyone? Maybe he went looking for suicide by enemy fire? The suicide rate of returning vets is mind bogglingly high. Are they deserters if they don't wait until they get home?

    http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/01/11/3150531/young-male-veterans-more-likely-commit-suicide/
    The GOP narrative has gone from really bad to outright evil.

    As usual these guys are hypocrisy-aware challenged.

    GOP Urged White House To 'Do All It Can' To Get Bowe Bergdahl
    Sen. Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.) then:
    John McCain then:

    Rep. Rich Nugent (R-Fla.) then:

    Sens. Pat Toomey (R-Pa.) and Bob Casey (D-Pa.), along with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) then:
    It also turns out Congress was informed an exchange was possible and was being worked on. It's not like there was no notice at all.

    Also appears the released Gitmo prisoners were slated to eventually be released, at worst they "jumped the line" according to some sources. The public and much of Congress want Gitmo closed.

    From Politifact:
    520 Gitmo prisoners were released or transferred to other countries while Bush and Cheney were in office.

    To hear Cheney bitch now you'd think that never happened.

    Half the country has gone insane. :mad:
     
  11. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
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    I live in the US, and I did not know that. :oops:
     
  12. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    [​IMG]
     
  13. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
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    Why oil? :confused:
     
  14. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Because it was the Republican Party that got us into the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. A lot of people say it was more to do with oil than anything else.
     
  15. GingerCoffee
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    And climate change denial, and refusal to invest in alternative energy, and "drill baby drill" and huge subsidies and low taxes on the oil companies which have the highest profits in the world and ...
     
  16. GingerCoffee
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    Rachel Maddow had a segment tonight on all the GOP Tweets that supported getting the POW back but have since been deleted.
     
  17. thirdwind
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    thirdwind Contributing Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    This is the thing that baffles me the most. How can half our politicians deny the results of climate change studies? That's seriously fucked up.
     
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  18. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    This is the problem with democracy that I think Plato even pointed out. It turns into a popularity contest, and soon you are left with a system where the leaders are decided by who is the biggest tosser. I'm paraphrasing of course, Plato probably said that in Ancient Greek. :p
     
  19. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    During the Peloponnesian War, for instance, some of the Athenian politicians believed they could do a better job in running the war than Pericles, and when it came time for them to vote for the new guy to rule, boy did they bicker and argue. That's my understanding from The Peloponnesian War by Donald Kagan.

    If you give people a choice to run for power, it might turn into that. Monarchs and dictatorships don't really have to worry about that, but as proven time after time again, we really don't like them much anymore. :p
     
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  20. EdFromNY
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    Hey, I still haven't gotten past the 2008 Republican Presidential Primary debate in which the candidates were asked if any of them didn't "believe" in evolution, and three actually raised their hands.

    @Lemex - as I recall, Plato did not call them "tossers".
     
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  21. thirdwind
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    A few years ago, the contestants of the Miss America Pageant were asked if evolution should be taught in schools, and a good number of them said no. One of the reasons they gave was that evolution is "only a theory." o_O

    Luckily for them, the pageant isn't based on how smart you are.
     
  22. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Haha, I know, I'm just being silly. :p
     
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  23. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Though he probably would've if he could. :D
     
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  24. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Too right! :p
     
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  25. GingerCoffee
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    tosser
    In the slang I'm used to, toss means to puke.

    Kind of like pissed means angry or peed in the US, and drunk in Oz or the UK.
     
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