Did "Star Wars" ruin science fiction?

Discussion in 'Science Fiction' started by minstrel, May 3, 2014.

  1. Jaina

    Jaina Member

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    In my opinion Star Wars falls into the category of "science fantasy", however people may classify that genre. It's not about the information given or not given, it's about certain elements that simply will never appear in real sf-stories. *cough* Magic. *cough* And I don't think science fantasy equals with being speculative fiction. It CAN be both of course, but it must not.
     
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  2. Daemon Wolf

    Daemon Wolf Senior Member

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    Tech does make science. An advanced battering ram is just that, an advanced battering ram. Had it been something like a laser or something of the like then it would be science fantasy. Star Trek has random jumps where they appear "whenever the script calls for it". So does that make it not science? No. Hell even Warhammer 40k has the same thing and that is science as well.
     
  3. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Yep. In Star Wars, where does 'science' come in? Even in ostensibly science-like elements, like say an X-Wing fighter, you have them flying through space like airplanes in an atmosphere. I don't think there is anything 'science' about Star Wars, so why not just call it fantasy and leave it at that?
     
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  4. Daemon Wolf

    Daemon Wolf Senior Member

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    We've had giant rainbow butterflies in space in science fiction. Just because we don't know how it works or how it would work doesn't mean it's fantasy. We have clones, androids, robots, space ships, star ships, star cities, etc. As I said: Without the Jedi/Sith combo this would simply be a science fiction series.

    Starship Troopers had people falling out of the sky in giant eggs that broke apart. If you want to say star wars is simply fantasy then I guess Robert Heinlein's work fits right in there too (based on your definition).
     
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  5. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I can't remember for sure, but didn't Star Wars begin with "Once upon a time, in a galaxy far far away..." To me that's pretty evident. It was intended by George Lucas to be fantasy. Space fantasy.

    Firefly, on the other hand, I consider science fiction. It deals with Earth (That Was), terreforming, history, people speak a mixture of Chinese and English because basically they are the two powers that got into space, there is a genuine sci-fi subject in that the effects of technology might not always bring about the best outcomes (Reavers) etc. While there is certainly a cowboys in space element to the storylines, the whole setting is definitely in 'the future,' as envisioned by Whedon & Co. When asked why there weren't any aliens in this future world, his answer was: "Well, there aren't any now." While the storylines aren't all that serious, I do think he based the world of Firefly on what civilisation could become, if it took that particular turn.
     
  6. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Starship Troopers lacks the magic elements and egregious violations of the laws of physics that Star Wars has. I think it fits within science fiction.

    Star Wars is so firmly within the fantasy genre, and so lacking in science, I'm not sure why it is necessary to put the word "science" in front of it when describing it.
     
  7. Jaina

    Jaina Member

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    Because it is not straight fantasy. ASOIAF is fantasy. Eragon is fantasy. An important part of fantasy worlds is the replacement of technology with magic stuff. Or technology that functions with magic. In Star Wars we have magic AND technology that functions pretty well without any magic. That's why there's still a "realistic" part about it, even if I woulnd't call hyperspace traveling realistic. So Star Wars is not ONLY fantasy. In the end I think science fantasy is fitting best.
     
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  8. Aaron DC

    Aaron DC Contributor Contributor

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    Firefly == :love:

    Re: Starwars sciencey bits, I did appreciate the midichlorian explanation for "Force" ability, particularly given how similar the name is to mitochondria, and the implied analogy of strength in physical combat, yadda yadda. Clever!
     
  9. Daemon Wolf

    Daemon Wolf Senior Member

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    How is it lacking in anything? Ships in space? That's absurd. Nothing like that could happen. And suits of power? What the hell?

    Really. Just because we don't understand it doesn't mean it's not science.
     
  10. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I like "space fantasy" better. The word "science" should have some kind of meaning if it is going to be included.

    I also think it is important to distinguish between things that are not understood, but that are plausible extrapolations from what is understood, or are anomalies presented in the context of our lack of understanding, versus rampant violation of the the know laws of physics and what we do understand, with little or no explanation to go along with it.
     
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  11. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    You need to re-read what I've been saying, think about it, and then respond. Don't just type the first thing that comes to mind before you've contemplated the points being made.
     
  12. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    You're still kind of incoherent here. We've already made the case the Warhammer isn't science fiction at all, so I'm not sure why you're using it to defend your argument. Adding lasers to something doesn't make it science anything.

    And Star Trek absolutely has a perspective of distance. There are episodes, and scenes in the movies, in which the time it takes to travel somewhere is an integral element of the plot.

    ??
    Do you mean drop ships, that we're specifically designed for atmospheric entry, and whose shape was given very careful consideration by military engineers? Because calling them "eggs" just makes your argument that much more ridiculous.
    Yeah, you're really not making the case you think you are.
     
  13. Daemon Wolf

    Daemon Wolf Senior Member

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    I think Jaina put it best:
     
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  14. Aaron DC

    Aaron DC Contributor Contributor

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    Star wars is space opera for me.
     
  15. Jaina

    Jaina Member

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    Yeah, Star Wars is also space opera, the question is, does it's universe contains enough scientific facts to be classified as science fantasy. I don't really know much about all the technological details in Star Wars, so maybe we should ask someone who knows more... For me, with the space ships, robots (droids whatever), giant super weapons and futuristic cities there is enough technology to be part science fiction. You can also call it space fiction, if you like it better. XD
     
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  16. Lyrical

    Lyrical Frumious Bandersnatch

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    "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..." :D

    Amounts to the same thing though.
    Lucas wasn't trying to write science fiction. He wasn't following in the footsteps of Jules Verne, Arthur C. Clarke, and Isaac Asimov. Sure, he used fantastical, speculative technology in his storytelling, but the plot revolved around this mystal religious Force (read: magic). Because of that, I feel that rather than take the Sci Fi genre and bastardize it, he took the Fantasy genre, mired in medieval europe for the most part, and tossed it into space. The term "space fantasy" works best for me. But either way, I don't think it ruined Sci Fi.

    I have to wonder if any science fiction writer has ever looked to Star Wars for guidance. My gut says no, since the huge, glaring science mistakes are so well known.
     
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  17. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yeah, I kinda wondered if I got that wrong. Ach well. It's been years since I've seen it. But I've got the DVD. And it's probably my favourite movie of all time (the original.) So ...I might decide to watch it again soon.
     
  18. DanishMike

    DanishMike Member

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    I think it's important to remember that science fiction is a beast with many mothers, and that the history of the genre began centuries before the development of science. It encompasses philosophical descriptions of utopian - and later dystopian - societies, the traveller's tale of fantastic experiences in exotic places, and the meeting of fantastic creatures in the outskirts of civilization. All these elements are millennia old and have been incorporated into the genre. Only very lately has the "scientifiction" subgenre (that's what it was called in the early 1900's) been added, where "hard" natural science and scientific accuracy is important. Later, the" squishy" sciences like ssocial science, sociology and psychology were included into the genre. This multitude of subgenres is what I find so fascinating about science fiction - you can't put it in a box.
    Having said that, I actually do think Star Wars ruined sci-fi by drawing attention away from all the other subgenres. The genre had something immensely interesting going in the 50'es to the 70'es, and then the wave just died out. The science fiction authors of that time attempted to handle immensely heavy and deep philosophical questions, but now it seems the genre has faded away into bland effect-heavy space operas. Still love the genre for all it's diversity, though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
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  19. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    One would consider these fantasy, no?

    As for the rest, I guess you are not familiar with the work of William Gibson, amongst others.
     
  20. DanishMike

    DanishMike Member

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    Yes, earlier you would have considered this folklore (elves, goblins = aliens), legends (gods, angels, demons, wizards = aliens), classic-era fiction (Illiad / Argonauts / Odysse = space travel, protagonist hero meeting aliens in weird environments), and in a modern context fantasy. And yes, science fiction has adopted all these elements from other genres - otherwise you would never even consider Star Wars science fiction, because it is composed entirely of these elements; there isn't a grain of science in it.
    I am quite familiar with Gibson and the cyberpunk subgenre, among many other authors, what's your point in asking? Did you consider reflecting on my post before trying to shoot it down?
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  21. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I repair to my same answer from last year. There's what hits the masses, and there's what's in-genre. Did the film facet of Sci-Fi get lost in special effects for a while? Sure. New toys made for films that were pretty much just about showing off those toys, but in recent years Science Fiction has started to return to its core and roots. The film Her, and the recent film Arrival are both examples*. The former tackles concepts of interpersonal relationships and our growing propensity to distance ourselves, failing to connect; and the latter tackles language and communication at a level of not how, but why we do this, communicate. Neither of these films made a big flash, but they are excellent Science Fiction, of the best kind.

    But again, this is film. We have to know how to seperate film from books in these discussions.

    *ETA: Both those films feature Amy Adams. My opinion of said films has nothing to do with my crush on her. ;)
     
  22. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    I don't know why some spec fic fans get so hung up on genre classification. It ends up like the picky child who freaks out when the peas touch the mashed potatoes on their plate. "You got SPACE OPERA in MY sci-fi!!?" It's like people forget that subgenres exist. Space Opera is science fiction, Hard Sci-Fi is science fiction, Space Western is science fiction, Cyberpunk is science fiction. Period. I found a Venn diagram that nicely sums up speculative fiction as a whole.

    6100122_orig.jpg

    Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror are huge bubbles with plenty of space for many things. The elitist attitude I see creeping into parts of the spec fic community really needs to die before it starts choking out rising talent that doesn't conform to the elitist's definition of what X is.

    Edit: it seems the diagram I found isn't working. I'll see if I can find a way to get it working.
     
  23. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I fixed it. ;)
     
  24. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I don't see this going away any time soon. From sort of the other end of the spy-glass, look at all the threads in this forum (and other forums) that gripe to the tune of:

    Why is Fantasy so {fill in the blank}?
    What are you tired of in Fantasy?
    Fantasy tropes that are burned out.
    etc. etc. etc

    You see these and similar gripes come up all the time. All. The. Time. And when you point out the staggering length and breadth of the genre, it's a singularly exasperating moment because the answer is invariably: "I don't mean that kind of Fantasy, I mean {insert Tolkien Fetish Description}".

    The blinders are self-imposed. It's not just that the peas touching the potatoes freaks them out, it's that they've learned to cherish being freaked out by the peas touching the potatoes.
     
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  25. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Thanks.

    To use some examples people have been talking about earlier in this thread, I'd put Lovecraft's Mythos in the overlap of all three, Star Wars in the overlap of Sci-Fi and Fantasy, Event Horizon in the overlap of Sci-Fi and Horror, and Lord of the Rings squarely in Fantasy.
     

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