Dirty Words: Adverbs

Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by Catrin Lewis, Aug 4, 2016.

  1. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    No, they're not.

    No, we don't, and no, it isn't.

    Some adverbs are redundant. Some adverbs tell readers things that were already obvious, and thus communicate condescension toward the reader. Some adverbs would be better replaced by a different verb. Some adverbs are just fine. Some explanations, as opposed to demonstrations, are bad because they explain important things that would have had more impact if they were demonstrated. Some explanations are just fine. Some text that people point to and roar "THAT'S TELLING! BAD WRITER! NO BISCUIT!" is just fine.

    It's all some, and maybe, and it all depends on your voice.
     
  2. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    I disagree. I don't think the first sentence is necessarily lazy. If it was anything, it would be redundant since "You stupid bitch" implies anger.

    To me your first example is innocuous and I won't crucify or even notice a writer for it. It's all about how and when you want to use it. So depending on how fast I wish for the reader to register and move onto a more important focus, I will use the first as a preference. This is with consideration as to what was said. He said three words in anger. Job's done, move onto what matters. It's not lazy, it's efficient.

    Not every bit of dialogue needs to come into intense focus. I'm just as likely to laugh and imagine your second sentence has the man constipated. So I found your example comical and exaggerated. To me that is worst than if the author brushed over it quickly with an adverb. You start to notice all the many flushing, red faces and teeth gritting/grinding.

    So I thought you provided bad examples and the very reason why people should use their common sense with adverbs. They might not be replacing it with something better.

    Also, I think writers need to consider that readers are lazy too (like me). They need to consider how many words are needed to get a point across and whether every nuance of an expression needs to be described. I would find that tiresome. As a reader, I've never had an issue with adverbs and I did check with on of my NYT best selling author for a historical fiction. She uses them and I loved it, completely blind to it and only felt the emotion being expressed.

    I've only had a problem with it on writing sites when bad writers use it so much it's burning your eyes.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2016
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  3. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I agree that it's redundant. If it were:

    "You stupid bitch," he said cheerfully.

    then the adverb would be serving a perfectly legitimate function. Adverbs to communicate an unexpected message, a message not communicated by the words or actions, are useful. A "message" example:

    She frosted the cake angrily.
     
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  4. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

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    But I wants a biscuit! Badly! A Jaffa cake, if you please.

    Oh. You mean doggie biscuits. Sry.

    :bigtongue:

    Here's the funny thing: In dropping the adverb and "showing" the action, etc., what one ends up with, quite often, is an adverbial phrase. It's still communicating How, When, Where, etc. And as @LinnyV pointed out, not every thought, expression, or action deserves all that.
     
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  5. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

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    4th grade for me. 4th grade.

    :D
     
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  6. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

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    The individual who told me this was one of the judges for the "Novel Beginnings" contest I entered last winter. I think I'll resist temptation and not call him/her a monumental dope, because, after all, I didn't expect to win and from the beginning I considered the $15 entry fee as payment for a crit. So if I totally blow off this judge, I figure I've wasted $7.50. Maybe a whole $15, if they're the same one who panned my other entry, too.

    But yes, he/she did cite Stephen King at me. Told me I should check his On Writing CDs out from the library and pay particular attention to 5/6 and its lesson on avoiding "LY words." Ho boy. And then highlighted all the -ly adverbs in red. No, actually, they missed some. And other adverbs like "almost" and "then." Oooooh, I am a hardened offender.

    Here's the funny thing: There were 23 judging criteria, with a maximum score of 69. This judge hated my submission and gave it only a 29. She even gave me 1s on adherence to contest entry guidelines and on SPaG, both of which are BS. But the other judge loved it and gave me 62 out of 69 (with full marks on guideline adherence and grammar). Makes me wonder if I did something to piss the first judge off.

    I do intend to get my money's worth. I'll go back and see where the story could benefit by my being more pictorial, but I doubt I'll rewrite my novel to please that one judge.
     
  7. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Maybe a message about how subjective writing is, maybe a message about the quality of the judging. What criteria were used in selecting judges for the contest?
     
  8. angel2016

    angel2016 Member

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    This is what's frustrating to me. I'm a new writer, but it seems that if you're writing in close third, you're going to have more adverbs than in other POV's. Am I wrong?

    I personally love adverbs in my everyday life, and I've cut them out quite a bit in my writing, but I can't find a way around using them if a character is going to be thinking them.
     
  9. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    OMG. You've read Robertson Davies? I just discovered him a few years ago and I now have most of his books. What a writer! Canadian, too. What's not to like?
     
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  10. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I don't really see the connection between adverbs and close third... can you give me an example or something to explain?
     
  11. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

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    No idea. The contest coordinator said in her cover email that if there were any real problems (vs. subjective disagreements), we should let her know. I'm thinking of asking her to make it a rule that if judges mark down on objective things like adherence to contest guidelines, they should be required to state what the entrant did wrong, so he or she won't make the same error next time.
     
  12. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Instead of telling us what she thought (He was cooking really messily) tell us what she saw (Clouds of flour burst into the air as he shook more into the batter mix. His clothes were already powdered white, and it looked like he'd wiped chocolate icing on his jeans instead of a towel.)

    I mean, use the adverb where it's appropriate... but there are alternatives.
     
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  13. angel2016

    angel2016 Member

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    I suppose I am just not that observant. I wouldn't ever describe something to someone like that.
     
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  14. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    You're writing your novel as if the character is literally talking to somebody? That's not close third, that's... something else. :D
     
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  15. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    I don't write in 3rd so maybe I'm not qualified, but like @Tenderiser says if you trying to write in a voice that sounds like you're actually telling the story to someone, you probably need to think about writing in 1st person.
     
  16. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I, too, can't see a link between close third and adverbs. Nor do I find myself doing a lot of thinking in adverbs. Can you explain in more detail?
     
  17. angel2016

    angel2016 Member

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    No, I'm not. I won't try to explain if I'm going to be mocked.
     
  18. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    You can explain then, since nobody has mocked you.
     
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  19. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    Like Tenderiser says, no one's mocking you. However you have been asked to provide an example / explanation by two different members, and still haven't done so. We can't help you unless you explain yourself.
     
  20. doggiedude

    doggiedude Contributor Contributor

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    Shouldn't that be - What's not to like 'eh?
     
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  21. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    There is no mocking. Asking you to explain your question is not mocking. We can't answer a question that we don't understand.
     
  22. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Ha ha! Well, I'm from northern Michigan. Shoulda known that, eh?
     
  23. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    If you were talking to a friend about another friend, you might say, "Kathy's a really messy cook." That's fine in dialogue.

    However, if you were having a conversation you might well follow that up with a few examples, wouldn't you? "She throws food all over the place. Somebody needs to hoover the floor afterwards or the meal gets tracked through the whole house." It's these examples that make the person you're speaking to say,"Omigod, my sister does that. I'm always picking squashed breadcrumbs off the bottom of my shoe whenever I'm at her house."

    What you're trying to do as a writer is create a mind picture for the reader to 'see' as they read. Give them these kinds of examples. You don't need to fully describe the entire scene every time, but try to use a few examples and you'll be creating enough of a picture to get on with.

    Pretend you're watching this person cook. What do you actually see happening? What is Kathy actually doing that makes you decide she's a messy cook? If you want the reader to come to the same conclusion you did, you'll need to tell the reader what you saw. If you just give your conclusions without any examples to back them up, you risk putting distance between your reader and your story.

    Obviously you can also write an entire scene describing everything Kathy does when she cooks—but unless that scene is important to your plot it's not necessary and will take up too much story time. Or you can gloss over the incident by just telling the reader: Kathy is a messy cook and then go on to something else so I don't enjoy having dinner at her house. I'm always wondering where that food has been before it gets to my plate. But if your entire book is written this gloss-over way (in whatever 'person' you choose) filled with your own conclusions about what people are like, without anything extra to follow, it will be dull to read. Why? Because these kinds of descriptions are just statements, not pictures. And they're not specific.

    "Messy" Kathy could be wearing sloppy pajamas covered in grass stains while she cooks. She could be dumping ingredients all over the floor because she's not paying attention to what she's doing. She could be the sort of cook who wears an apron and doesn't drop stuff, but never cleans as she goes, so she leaves the kitchen looking like a bomb site after making a simple spaghetti bolognaise.

    If you cultivate the habit of using examples instead of adverbs, you're probably on the right track.

    Like some of the others on this thread, it would help me to pinpoint my response if I could see a sample of what you mean. I'm not understanding the connection you're making between 'third person' and adverbs either.

    There are times when you'll want to use adverbs in your writing. It's important to learn when and how to use them to best effect.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2016
  24. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    In all my years of writing, I have never once thought, "OMG! I have to get rid of all my adverbs." I just don't think of stuff like that, and I do okay. Use your judgement and not just something someone said about writing that you think you have to follow.
     
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