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  1. Megalith
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    Megalith Contributing Member Contributor

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    Discrimination against conspiracy theorists (fix'd)

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Megalith, Sep 23, 2015.

    I was noticing in another thread the bad rap that conspiracy theorist usually get. I wanted to give you a different perspective on them... To clear the crazy bad vibes they give you... hopefully.

    First of all, I wouldn't go so far as to call them crazy. They are something I'm actually very glad we have. We shouldn't trust our government at all. Not even a little bit. Being suspicious of them all of the time should not only be reasonable, but widely encouraged. Why, their are even people who think the massacres and large scale shootings in recent years were government operations. Something that would only be possible if the government had ways to manipulate people from a distance, without any close contact. As ludicrous as it sounds, and far fetch'd as it sounds, wouldn't such a thing be extremely dangerous to us as a species? If something like that existed in the shadows of our deep state government, would you be okay with no one doing anything about it?

    Here... let me give you an example to make it clear:

    There is no proof aliens exist. Therefor my stance should be that aliens don't exist. But then is it wrong for me to search for, believe in aliens, because I want to really see one, because I think the possibility they exist is very likely, when considering the size of the universe? Is it not admirable to seek out the unknown, even when it is believed to be a lie, based on only conjecture and reasoning?

    So... is it wrong, condemn-able in any way, to search for, believe in, unproven false flag operations and/or possible hidden technologies that can control and change a person's behavior/thoughts without any physical contact? Just because the government hides technologies from us... Just because they've done false flag operations before... Just because i'm scared of someone doing that... Comparing them to your average bigot isn't fair. They have a far more righteous goal in mind, and they aren't scared to turn the world against them to get there.

    You might not be concerned with unproven 'What if's" but, that is the source of new knowledge, the exposure to new information. It's not enough to say 'What if" either. It takes a deep amount of commitment and resources to even begin to challenge the unknown... especially on your own. That is why they should be encouraged, rather than discriminated against, to improve their odds of success... as their discoveries and stubbornness may one day save our respective countries.
     
  2. Lea`Brooks
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    Lea`Brooks Contributing Member Contributor

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    I believe in many conspiracy theories. During the Ferguson riots, I learned from friends who were there that the DHS was initiating riots. Do outside sources talk about it? No. Does the lack of coverage or "proof" make it any less probable that it's true? No. But does it make me crazy that I've heard personal accounts from people and believe them to be true? It shouldn't, but people will still label me as such. I'm also a 9/11 "truther," as we're now being called. I don't run around screaming about it like a crazy person or even talk about it much because I know how people view it. I keep it to myself and only discuss it with people I trust.

    Without knowing that though, I doubt anyone on this forum would have labeled me "crazy." I'm just as sane as everyone else on here. I'm sure I'll be called crazy now, but it doesn't bother me. If I'm called crazy because I choose to be skeptical and not buy into every story the government feeds me, then so be it. I'm not offended (which is a first).

    But I'm also not going to get into an argument about it and start defending myself, because there's nothing to defend. I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm not hurting anyone. If asked, I'll discuss it, but not to be the butt of someone's joke. I'm comfortable in my theories and feel no shame about it. And despite them, I'm still perfectly sane and as capable as everyone else. My theories don't hinder my or anyone else's life at all.

    It's funny... So many people view "conspiracy theorists" as crazy. I view people who ignore conspiracy theories as crazy. Anyone can lie and hide information. So why would you trust everything you hear or read "just because?" I think our government is very capable of doing awful things in private. Should we really believe that they haven't just because they're the government? I don't think we should.


    Bring on the insults. I'm ready for them. :pop:
     
  3. matwoolf
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    matwoolf Contributing Member Contributor

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    Christ, sound drunk. Apologies, I sprayed again, sorry.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
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  4. Megalith
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    Megalith Contributing Member Contributor

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    It's a damn shame that personal accounts and whistle blowers get so little attention. Skeptics constantly question the validity of stories, which is fine, but when thousands pour in of the same account, or similar accounts within small time frames, that is a good indicator that they can be trusted. And still witnesses are killer in court cases, but not for conspiracies apparently... Because anyone saying anything top secret and bad about the government is simply a liar trying to get attention.

    Well, I would say that believing in any conspiracy takes a lot of real effort which a normal person might not want to put in. With all the bad information and dis-information (Counter Intelligence Operations) that exists on just about every conspiracy, you have to wade through tons of crap to get to the real meat and bones of a situation. Then you might start to realize just how tough it is for you to have to look through all this and figure out what happened. It's daunting to try and prove something like this. It needs all interested parties active cooperation and commitment to accomplish anything worthwhile. Too find the proof, to raise awareness, etc.
     
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  5. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    There's a difference between 'crazy' and lacking critical thinking skills. The former is deluded, the latter misinterprets the evidence to varying degrees. Conspiracy theorists, as the term is commonly applied, can be either or both.

    Beyond that, what's the point of this discussion?
     
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  6. Lea`Brooks
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    Lea`Brooks Contributing Member Contributor

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    Maybe the problem isn't that they lack critical thinking skills but possess better critical thinking skills than non-conspiracy theorists.
    To challenge the opinion people have of them, obviously.
     
  7. daemon
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    daemon Contributing Member Contributor

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    In other words, "having an incorrect belief does not make you an insane or bad person."
     
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  8. Selbbin
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    Selbbin I hate you Contributor

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    Like any outsider group, it's the complete whackjobs that discredit the reasonable.

    There are some reasonable theories, some proven true, but some that are just truly insanely stupid and paranoid. The problem is that the two are lumped together. Just like environmentalists, where the reasonable are discredited because of the over-the-top nut-jobs.
     
  9. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    That is, by far, the most hilarious thing I've read on this site.
     
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  10. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    Am thankful, caught initial publication. Was going to go on about springtime epidemics to clear chemist shelves of remedy. Thankfully, am not put on spot in such state as am
     
  11. DancingCorpse
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    DancingCorpse Member

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    I research both sides then only once I have researched the topic for several hard months do I decide whether I am a tinhat merchant or not, there's a difference between a conspiracy and an unacceptable dripfeed.
     
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  12. Andrae Smith
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    Andrae Smith Gone exploring... in the inner realm... Contributor

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    lesson learned. on ta da next one. ha ha
     
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  13. Lea`Brooks
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    Lea`Brooks Contributing Member Contributor

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    My point was there's no answer either way. Psychologists don't know why some people believe conspiracy theories and others don't. There's no set standard on age, race, gender, or education. Even the most educated and rational and reasonable people believe some theories. I read an article just recently that said 63% of Americans believe in at least one of them. No one knows why. But labeling (all of) them as crazy or unintelligent is inaccurate. We can make all the guesses we want. It doesn't change the fact that there is no known answer, so to say you (general you, not specific you) are right about why they think the way they do comes off as, quite frankly, ignorant and pompous. You know what they say about people who assume....
     
  14. Cave Troll
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    Cave Troll Bite the bullet, do your own thing. Contributor

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    We can see you...

    We know what you bought today...

    We know where you are...


    Sorry couldn't resist. Seriously though what's the point. It is one thing to mistrust, and it is entirely different to speculate with that mistrust. Honestly it is like this: McDonalds doesn't actually use beef (pink slime) in their burgers. In fact it is homeless people repurposed. See speculation on a fast food chain that has exactly 0 evidence to substantiate the claim. Speculation is a bad thing, and can drive you insane if that is all you do when it pertains to a subject.

    Sure there is wide spread corruption, but if you really want to know who runs the country look where the puppeteers are. We live in a illusory democracy where giant corporations decide what the price of politics really is. Simply follow the money, and you will find the man behind the curtain.

    I am off to go club baby seals and killer whales now, so have fun playing the speculation game. :p
     
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  15. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Not knowing whether the conspiracy theorist or the skeptic, (for lack of a better term), is thinking critically would suggest you don't believe there is a real world out there. Otherwise one is right and one is not.

    As for educated people being among the CT believers, education is not synonymous with critical thinking.
     
  16. Selbbin
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    Selbbin I hate you Contributor

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    It's good to remain wary, but not wacky.
     
  17. Selbbin
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    Selbbin I hate you Contributor

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    I had a recent example when I went to a hippy festival earlier this year. I was speaking with someone about MH370. He believed many other conspiracies, which is why he refuses to own a mobile or drive a car with a computer chip, so it didn't surprise me that he started on about MH370. According to him it was forced to land on a remote island, run by the US military, and the passengers kidnapped. He 'knew' this because a Chinese national had secreted a phone down his pants when everyone was ordered to hand in their phones. I asked him how we could know so much detail from a secreted text message, how it explains the erratic flight path, and why the military didn't just block mobile signals. I mean, cinemas can do that ffs. You can buy blockers in electronics stores. Wouldn't the military be more secure. Anyway, he got mad and started on about the downing of MH17. He claims it was shot down by a Russian attack helicopter, not a missile, because of the projectile holes. Being ex-military, I explained to him how anti-aircraft missiles work, using shrapnel (ball-bearings and the like, punching round holes just like a bullet). I explained that attack helicopters cannot fly that high OR that fast. I explained that planes do not shoot cannons at other planes, they are for ground attack. H insisted there was footage, from above, filmed from the back of a Russian refueling plane with the ramp down. I explained re-fueling planes don't have ramps, don't open them at high altitude unless doing a HALO jump, and crew-members would not be standing there recording. I also explained to him that suing an anti-aircraft missile would be much easier than his conspiracy, which serves NO purpose. He didn't agree and refused to listen to reason. He WANTS to believe there is evil and corruption because it fuels his need for vigilance and 'knowing what's really going on'. It makes him feel in control of his paranoia.

    Some conspiracy theories make sense. Some do not. Be discerning. It's only suspect if it the truth doesn't make sense.

    It's also, like religion, a way of explaining things they don't understand.

    As writers we should be hyper aware of these things, as they are relevant to creating plot.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2015
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  18. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    This is a great time for me to tell this story. I was at a family thanksgiving dinner, and my father, a tenured history professor mentioned that he had just finished the Warren Commission . A work of around 50 authors, who interviewed over 500 hundred people, presents over 3,000 exhibits, and that clocks in at just under 900 pages. "And the finding of the report?" my father asked, before answering his own question, "Oswald was a radical, who acted alone." And the people that hadn't read the Warren Commission were duly impressed.

    Except for my uncle, whose words I will now immortalize, "Well I've never read the Warren Commission, but I can assure you that he didn't!"

    And I thought to myself, that's what I sound like to people. A completely unhinged argument based on a vehement assertion of confirmation bias.
     
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  19. Selbbin
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    Selbbin I hate you Contributor

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    Probably because your uncle had something to do with it.
     
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  20. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    That seems like the most probable reason.
     
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  21. Selbbin
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    Selbbin I hate you Contributor

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    Dear NSA agent reading this thread flagged by the words 'Whackjob' and 'Hippy', keep an eye on that shifty guy.
     
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  22. Kingtype
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    Kingtype Always writing or thinking things XD Staff Role Play Moderator Contributor

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    Well

    I don't deny them all but just based off what I've seen most actual conspiracies that turned out to be true and or proven, they either got found out years later and nobody cares (Mkultra, Tuskegee syphilis and experiment and such if they count as conspiarcy theories?) or they just got busted cause people are incompetent.

    I mean its always good to question the government as anything with a position of power should allowed to be open to discussion but I think sometimes we forget that the government isn't like some single authority figure of one but it is important to note that the government is made of people.

    Like us and those who work in the government as a whole are going to have human error.

    Watergate? Now I don't know everything down to the wire about that affair but based on what I know you had five men working for Nixon (president at the time) to pull what was basically a heist right? And if to my knowledge is they got busted by a security guard basically. (was it?)

    It just seems that happens a lot.

    You have these agents or these guys working for the government or some agency and they get this big plan but then POOF they mess up and it drops to the public. Isn't that what happened with say something like NSA scandal? Big scary agency but they couldn't keep one guy quiet and then 'BOOM' all over the news and it goes public.

    Just based on what I know about these events and scandals at face value they always seem to get caught due to incompetence or just cause its hard to keep people quiet.

    Now please correct me if I'm wrong in any of my information regarding how Watergate (and NSA) went down and or if things such as Tuskegee incident count as conspiarcies? :) I do love to be corrected when wrong on subject matters.

    So if anyone takes the time to reply or read that be well appreciated :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2015
  23. Megalith
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    Megalith Contributing Member Contributor

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    Lacking proof and lacking critical thinking skills are two different things. Are you saying it's impossible for a conspiracy theory to be neither crazy or a 'misinterpretation of the evidence to varying degrees?' Is a 'reasonable conspiracy theorist' an oxymoron to you?

    How is critical thinking synonymous with being right or wrong? Depending on the precursors, critical thinking can lead to false conclusions and bad critical thinking can lead to true conclusions.

    Precisely. And if some of them happen to be right, somebody will already have their guard up. It's practically win-win.
     
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  24. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Obviously it's not impossible for a conspiracy to exist.

    It's not just lack of evidence that's the problem, it's when the evidence is overwhelmingly clear the conspiracy believers are wrong that's the problem.

    Take the '911 is and inside job' conspiracy. The Loose Change people put on a very slick video, they make seemingly convincing arguments about the towers being imploded or about the missing plane images and the size of the whole in the pentagon. If that's all you had to go on, one would not be crazy to think they might be right.

    But then you have the evidence that debunks the CT. For example, Popular Mechanics published an article, Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report - The World Trade Center, that lays out in detail how the CT is wrong. They detailed the supporting evidence and analysis, including a list of experts from multiple fields that they relied on.
    Imagining all these experts are in on it or duped, ignoring that careful analysis in favor of a slick video claiming this and that is evidence (which are all addressed in the Popular Mechanics analysis), and thinking because a couple of engineers on the Inside Job side of the debate, that's enough to believe there is evidence supporting the CT POV demonstrates a clear lack of critical thinking skills.


    Bad critical thinking can lead to true conclusions? :confused: Are you talking about serendipitous discoveries?

    Your question is like asking why is science be better than superstition? It's not that one with good critical thinking skills is never wrong. It's that people who believe in conspiracies like '911 was an inside job' ignore overwhelming valid evidence and persist on believing discredited evidence.


    Not thinking critically is never a win-win.

    Is the parent who believes vaccines cause autism despite overwhelming evidence it does not, winning when they withhold life saving vaccines from their children?
     
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  25. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Speaking of 9/11 conspiracies, the crane that collapsed on 9/11 in Mecca killing 118 people who were there for the Hajj was owned by The Saudi Binladen Group, yes that Bin Laden family, founded by Osama's father. And they were expanding the Grand Mosque.
    What were the chances of all those deaths on 9/11? Coincidence? A message from Allah? Or was it Mossad? ;)
     
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