That's really all there is to it, I guess. That makes sense. Although what if I was writing about character who genuinely felt that there was nothing they could do to help themselves out of the situation? Would they still be entitled to whine? Would that annoy and frustrate the reader, or evoke sympathy? It happens, sometimes, with mental illness, that others fail to see what it is a person is moaning about, while to the individual their anguish is rational and makes perfect sense. They ackowledge that others may see their behaviour as unreasonable and their situation easy to get out of, but to that person it is simply not as easy as it seems on the surface. How different individuals perceive the world is so radically different that its inevitable some will sympathise and others will just get frustrated and want to slam the book down. Obviously I won't be able to please everyone, but I want to write an accurate account of my protagonist's internal battle with mental illness, in as dynamic and engaging a fashion as possible.
This is not the same as writing about a character who whines a lot. Whining and mental illness are not inextricably linked. Plenty of people who are not mentally ill whine a lot. Some people who are mentally ill whine a lot. Some people who are mentally ill hardly whine at all. Which mental illness afflicts your character? Are you familiar with this particular illness? Many people who suffer from various conditions have written books -- some memoir, some fiction, about their experience with their particular form of mental illness. I think it would be helpful to read some of these. It's really impossible to say -- some readers have a very low tolerance for whiny characters, and there will be some people who this will bother too much for their enjoyment, even if they accept that some particular form of mental illness is contributing to feelings of hopelessness. Others will forgive whining, or may not even perceive it as whining if the mental condition you are describing adequately explains the character's situation and feelings about it. Mental illness seems to come up for discussion a lot on this forum. You may want to search for some of the other threads about it. You need to tread carefully, and make sure that you portray the particular illness accurately.
There is no question that I will portray it accurately as I intend to describe my own experiences, more or less - unless I have mistakenly diagnosed myself with this particular illness, there is not much danger of inaccuracy. It's not a memoir, and I will change some key details, but not those about the illness because it is central to the story. Of course I can acknowledge that whether or not a reader is frustrated by the constant reflection of dire circumstances/talking about feelings/expressing frustrations is annoying is wholly dependent on personal taste. If they have never experienced anything like it then it is of course more likely that they won't enjoy reading about it. I just want to get the balance right. I don't want to be all, "oh, this is so difficult for me" "oh I am such a tragic soul" "oh my circumstances are so dire" but I know that this just depends on the quality of writing. I think that "show, don't tell" is probably an important rule in this case, but sometimes things are difficult to express through external description when the conflict is going on solely within someone's head. This is really an issue for me because I know this to be the case in real life - people just can't see why I can't just be normal like everybody else, just can't comprehend what is going on in my mind to make me behave the way I do. I really need to take this opportunity to EXPLAIN myself. Though it's not just cathartic, I do actually want to get this published eventually, so I need to not annoy people too much by ranting on about feelings all the time. It is all down to balance at the end of the day, and I can see that now.
87% of self-diagnoses are inaccurate and often prevent the patient from getting the help they need, just saying. I read a study that claimed almost 67% of the people taking anti-depressants don't actually suffer from depression. Less than 2 out of 5 people who claim they suffer from depression actually suffer from depression. You should never self-diagnose even if you are a certified doctor. As for the book, my guess is that if you can prove to a reader that the whining is all part of the mental illness they might forgive it if it is not excessive. Even then, you would have to choose a mental illness that would justify the symptoms. Misrepresenting a mental illness can alienate readers since it is a very sensitive issue.
You may just have to write it and see what comes out. Write it the way you want to, and then assess to see whether it comes off as too whiney. There is a difference between portraying a bad situation and whining about it. See: Bill didn't want to meet me for ice cream. He never wants to have ice cream with me, even though he knows how much I like it. I had to decide whether to go get it myself. I hate going there all alone. It's so depressing. I wish that I could have found someone to go with me. Maybe I should just stay home. But then I won't have any ice cream and I really want some. Maybe if Bill knew how much I wanted ice cream, he'd come with me. But it really shouldn't matter. If he really loved me, he'd go with me, even if he didn't want any. Versus I drove up to the ice cream shoppe and went inside. I scanned the place for one of the really small tables that only seats one or two people. I hate to take up a big table if I'm here all by myself. I was hoping Bill would join me, but he had to finish his presentation. I've been in the house all day, and it feels good to get out, even if it's just for a small indulgence. No one else was available to join me, either, so I came myself. At the next table was a group of three girls and two boys. They were laughing and joking. They really looked like they were having a good time, and I started to fantasize about how nice it would be if I were a part of that group. I wonder if the girl who has red hair, like me, is dating the boy who just gave her a spoonful of his sundae. You could show later that Bill never does anything the MC wants, maybe she leaves him a message and leaves messages for other people too, but they never call back. You could show the character being lonely, but not wallowing in it or blaming other people. That's not a very fleshed-out example, and certainly not all that compelling. But you could show differences in the MC's thought process that will have a big effect on how people perceive her, and how whiney she comes across.
Thank you, this was very helpful. Of course, the circumstances my MC faces are quite radically different from the example you gave, but I'm just going to have to accept it as a challenge and get on with it. How simple I thought writing a book would be when I was twelve...
Well, it depends - and I'm addressing the general question rather than answering in the context of a particular work. Things to consider could be: Is your character whining about minor issues, or do they have genuine major problems? Are they able to look outside themselves to see others' problems, and to give, emotionally, to others, or are they utterly self-centered and always "taking"? Do they have a sense of humor? Are they aware of their own whininess? Do they have charm? Are they passive or do they try to solve their problems? For some reason, I keep using _An Episode of Sparrows_, by Rumer Godden, as an example of various things, and here I go again. Lovejoy, the little girl who's the protagonist of that book, has a lot that she could whine about. She's been abandoned by her mother, she lives with a family that is offhandedly kind to her (especially kind given that her mother is supposed to be paying for her support and isn't) but has little to no time for her, she's humiliated due to being unable to maintain the snobbish standards that her mother taught her, eventually that family can't care for her and she goes to a children's home and the last trace of those standards is lost to her...she has everything that could make her depressed and miserable. But insted of being whiney, she's _angry_. And determined. And devious. She connives and cajoles and steals to get what she wants, and when her fragile creation is destroyed, she connives and cajoles and steals to get it again. She's ruthless. She's selfish. She doesn't give, at least not consciously; she takes and takes and takes. But she's fascinating and you root for her. By contrast, Vincent, another character in the book, is more whiney. He wants what he wants the way he wants it, and he's not prepared to fight dirty or suffer for it; he creates it the way that it "should" be, so blind to compromise that he looks right past success staring him in the face, because it doesn't look quite the way he expected it to. And when it all falls apart on him, he's distinctly whiney. But he's not utterly selfish - he still has a fierce loyalty to his long-suffering wife... "He only married you to get the restaurant," Cassie told Mrs. Combie. "And because you're soft." "Yes, I married her because she's soft," said Vincent, and his eyes looked like an angry little dog's. "She has a soft voice, which you haven't. She feels soft." And he put his arm round Mrs. Combie and squeezed her; over Mrs. Combie's sallow, thin cheeks came her deep, pleased flush. I like Vincent, but I want to grab him by the collar and shake him. I don't think that he would do as the primary protagonist of a book; he needs to be in the secondary role that he does occupy. Olivia, another secondary character, is an elderly woman who has a lot to be whiney about, but she doesn't whine, she's just passive - at least when it comes to her own problems. And in the end, she abandons that passivity and acts, not to solve her own problems, but those of others. She is, in a way, the opposite of the self-centered whiner. So looking at all of this, I think that my objection is to the passive whiner. Now, as I understand it, Bella was _supposed_ to be passive - that was part of her success. For her to act strongly would be giving her a strong personality, and reduce the ease with which readers could insert themselves into her mind and her situation. But I don't think that that's a success that's easily repeatable. A passive whiner had better be _very_ charming or amusing or absorbing or something, to be tolerated by the reader.
Well, I think "whiny" by definition is a bad thing. If you mean is it all right that a character complains and moans and sobs a bit, yes that's fine. That's realistic. But have you ever sat down with a friend who couldn't stop complaining about something, everyday she complains, every time you see her she's complaining? Honestly now, how sympathetic are you towards that friend by the end of the month? That's when it becomes whiny. So it's like asking "Is infodump ever all right?" or "Is purple prose ever ok?" - well, by definition, neither of those qualities are all right. Both of them express the excess of something, and whiny expresses this excess also. If it's done right, your character wouldn't be labelled as "whiny", just as infodump now becomes exposition, a core ingredient in good writing/stories. If there's something the character doesn't feel able to get out of, then you have an obstacle in the story that your MC must overcome - that moment of action and overcoming the obstacle must some along somewhere. Your MC can't just wallow all the time or there would be no story. My point is, complaining for a time is acceptable, complaining for more than 1-2 chapters is not. And it also depends on how concentrated the bulk of the complaints is - if it's chapter after chapter, your readers will probably abandon you. If it's one scene here, three chapters later another scene there, that's fine. But there needs to be progression, it cannot be about the same complaint. If your character cannot realistically overcome her problems so fast, then what you need is to make time lapses and skip to the relevant, life-changing parts. That's what you do when you tell stories - you don't tell me about Mary eating sandwiches today, and then Mary eat another sandwich the next day, and the following day she chooses a meatball sub. Nobody cares. Don't repeat yourself. I remember once Henning Mankell wrote a detective story where the detective was battling with cancer. There was no focus on the cancer treatment, the procedures, and the character wasn't doing anything about it either. Instead he ran off to investigate a crime he wasn't meant to investigate, and Mankell used the cancer backdrop to give the MC depth, where the MC was always frightened of death and thinking about death. I got bored and very frustrated - I sympathise that he is scared, but by p.200 he's still frightened of the same thing and has done nothing about it, refusing to see the doctor, and I was just annoyed. I needed him to get some courage, some sort of strength, some decision to do something, anything, rather than wallow in that fear for the entire book. I get that it's actually very realistic, but when it comes to story-telling, there needs to be a balance. If I wanted only realism I wouldn't be reading fiction. Or the very realistic in fiction would need to be handled differently - but definitely not simply repeated, unchanged, throughout the book. Or otherwise it would need to be a much shorter book. Like The Outsider by Albert Camus - it's about the meaninglessness of life, from what I remember, and it is precisely about monotony - but the book was only some 70 pages long. Then it's fine! But it wouldn't have been if it were 300 pages long.
True. Then again, when whiny is poked fun at, it's entertaining and fun to read. Well, there was the murder...
Well it depends on how you specify 'whiny', i think... Characters, which do /nothing/ but whine and complain through the whole book, should simply get hit by a truck as fast as possible. I think those are seriously nothing but incredibly annoying. Then again characters who at some (few) points voice their discompfort/annoyance/whatever about something (even if that's trivial like homeworks and the likes) and do nothing about it afterwards are alright (for me at least). It's somewhat realistic. I doubt i know anyone who doesn't complain like that from time to time... They should just not repeatthe same stuff all the time.
Whiny in any context is annoying. if it's a mosquito, I slap it. Otherwise, I just want to. If I perceive a character as whiny, it'd take a lot of compensatory traits to make me care about him or her.
This is a fascinating subject and there is a lot of fantastic information already posted. I'm now really interested in exploring depression in a story and see if I can make it work. I agree completely with others that it's all about balance. Show-and-tell is also going to be incredibly important. A character, after a rough day, hunkering down in his/her bedroom, lights out, and just trying to de-stress and clear his/her mind will go a long way to show just how taxing events have been. Tiredness, lack of appetite, and other such symptoms will also be beneficial to your efforts. I also must stress another agreement I have. "Whiny" comes into play when a character is petty, repetitive, and selfish. If it's a constant barrage of new irritants to complain about, it'll help. Focus more on big things. Acknowledge in your story that these complaints are a problem. Have your character bite his/her tongue now and then, aware s/he may be taxing the patience of friends and/or family. Have him/her do kindnesses for others. Your word choice will also be crucial. Make smiles empty. Make laughter fake. That sort of thing. Make questions or statements grating or so caring they induce tears. Make social situations impart longing and frustration. For instance, I can't get on Facebook because it depresses me seeing all the fine things people I know are doing. Lack is just as important as presence so avoid mentioning some things or point out avoidance. I think you'll be fine from what's already been posted but I hope I was able to add a little something.
Major problems. Pretty self-absorbed, but most definitely has a sense of humour, though at times dark and cynical. And charming on some levels, yes. Thank you for this advice, it is good to get some examples of redeeming virtues that may compensate for a character’s kvetching. Well, yes. I almost regret using that particular word initially; I was really just repeating how I’ve heard many other people speak of characters that talk about their feelings all the time. I know it’s all down to the writer to paint a character in such a way that self-absorbed monologues are not perceived as whining, but compelling thought tracks which in turn intrigue the reader. This is problematic, of course, because realism is important to me. I do realise that there is a limit, and I wouldn’t want to write about every sorry aspect of my protagonist’s life because it would bore even me, never mind the reader, but I do want to adhere to reality as much as possible. Again, just another challenge. I’m so glad a thread I started has been described as “fascinating” – I will of course take all the credit for that . And I really hope you do! Although my story is not solely about depression it might be beneficial to discuss with someone the trials and tribulations of writing a novel about mental illness, saying as it is obviously a tricky thing to do. Thanks for all your advice
It'll probably be a while before I get to anything, unfortunately. I'm incredibly backlogged in my writing thanks to school (which I just got done with! yay!) and I can really only focus on one thing at a time (a superpower of mine as well as my Achilles heel). However, one of the characters in my current project is getting subjected to some seriously crazy situations and will likely be suffering from at least some temporary psychological issues. I'll file you away as someone to contact once I get there.
I would rather have a character whom I can sympathize with. By making the character whiny "unless they're an antagonist", it makes the appeal of the character lower. Though it has worked in movies at times.
There's nothing wrong with whiny characters. It's a trait that should belong to most characters at one time or another because we all have moments when we don't give a damn about tact and just want to be heard. I think it's important to bring balance, and to always remember people aren't whiny all the time. The most successful use of a whiny character is in humor in my opinion. The other characters around this whiny one acknowledge the fact the character is whiny, which in turn allows the reader to acknowledge it. The reader finds it less annoying and simply accepts it as a character trait. I'm going to use Buffy as an example, simply because it's done well here. Buffy herself is a whiny brat at times, especially in the first couple seasons. It brings reality to her character because she's just a teenager expected to save the world, but really, she just wants to shop and talk about boys. So she whines to Giles because she doesn't get her way. What makes her character likeable is the fact she grows--she accepts her destiny in the end. Another very whiny character is Cordelia, who doesn't shut up about herself. But its always humorous because Buffy and her gang always make witty jokes about her so the audience can laugh too. So in summary, whiny is an acceptable trait that should be balanced and acknowledged by other characters in the story.
Thank you!! That's exactly it. It will of course be done in good humour too. I know I couldn't get away with a complete misery guts as a protagonist, so methinks comic relief will be an important tool.
If you can make a character whiny, but not annoying, that will be fine. I watch a lot of Sci-Fi movies and TVs. In Stargate Atlantis, one of the main characters, Dr. McKay, is the most whiny you can expect. The guy complains just about anything. However, his character is awesome and is loved by most fans. Well, he's the only civilian in a group of tough combatant personnel, and he's really good at what he does. So
Yeah, it seems to be all about redeeming qualities ...I mean my protag is no kick-ass combatant, but I hope I can make her come across as somewhat charming
Great point here. Thank you for bringing it up! As soon as the author acknowledges the complaints (or possible complaints) of his or her audience, there's a whole new level of trust built. The reader knows at that point that the author understands what they did and that they did it intentionally. This sparks a beautiful relationship and deep trust that few other literary tricks can rival. It's a great thing to practice. Thank you so much for bringing it up, rhduke.
