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  1. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Do the documented lies match the perceived dishonesty of the current POTUS candidates

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by GingerCoffee, Dec 18, 2015.

    Given all the accusations of how dishonest and untrustworthy Hillary Clinton is supposed to be, and my assertion a double standard prevails, this seemed like a useful comparison to demonstrate there is more to mud slinging sticking than actual facts sticking.

    All Politicians Lie. Some Lie More Than Others.
    Considering the propaganda campaigns against both Clintons, claiming they are both so dishonest, the evidence is, they aren't.

    The GOP on the other hand ...:rolleyes:
     
  2. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    Let me first say, my feelings on the Clintons aren't based primarily on their political statements, which this article is about. I wouldn't exactly use Bill Clinton as a person to hang your "truth hat" on, as he was impeached by the House of Representatives for lying while under oath, and came only 12 votes in the Senate shy of being removed from office. My feelings about the Clintons come from their dealings like Whitewater, and the most recent stuff with Hillary potentially using her position as Secretary of State for their benefit.

    Also let me point out Jeb Bush is only 4 points worse than Hillary...in fact so is Rubio and Cruz, so to say that the GOP on the other hand are so bad is not quite factual.

    Edit: Never mind about Cruz, it is Christie that is Paul that are at 32% with Bush and Rubio at 40%.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2015
  3. GingerCoffee
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    The thread is not about how you feel about Clinton or who you are voting for. The thread is about everyone believing Clinton is dishonest and untrustworthy despite her having the same level of honesty as Sanders if one were to look at true and false statements checked by Politico.

    Two things are going on here, in my opinion. One, the GOP has had a smear campaign against Clinton for years and people are heavily influenced by that persistent smear campaign.

    And two, people are applying a double standard to Clinton. If Sanders tells something deemed false it is downplayed or simply ignored. If Clinton tells something no more false than Sanders, she's seen as dishonest and untrustworthy.


    As for Bill Clinton's perjury you find so distasteful, he was obviously entrapped. As for his philandering, he's guilty. But again the double standards. Powerful men have been philanderers since the beginning of history. I find it disgusting, don't get me wrong. But Bill Clinton is no worse than any of the rest of them. Again, the GOP campaign has successfully created a double standard.

    But this thread is not about Bill Clinton's philandering or his morals or how much the right-wing leaning people on this forum hate the Clintons.

    This thread is about a campaign of false charges that have become believed facts in spite of contradictory evidence.
     
  4. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    The thing is, you are equating people's beliefs about the Clinton's and their dishonesty ONLY by the facts that are being checked by this website, and that's not the only thing that makes a person dishonest.

    You also made the comment comparing them to the GOP, when as I pointed out, that only half the GOP are far off from Hillary in terms of percentage points of dishonesty are Ben Carson, Ted Cruz and Trump. Well, it's no shocker there. Carson has lied at every chance he can get. I'm surprised he hasn't tried to steal Al Gore's credit for inventing the internet. Wait, did Al Gore invent the internet? :superlaugh: Besides Carson, Trump just reads stuff and then makes up things as he goes. I don't think anyone is going to argue with you about that. But, outside of those two, and including Cruz at 66%, Christie, Paul, and Bush are at 32%, and Clinton and Sanders are at 28%. So half of the top GOP candidates are within just a few points of the Democratic hopefuls. I'm not including Fiorina because she doesn't have a rat's ass chance to get nominated. So I wouldn't blast the GOP too much.

    Also, from day one, I think I have made it pretty clear that I would be voting for Bush, even though that may be futile at this point.
     
  5. GingerCoffee
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    No, I presented evidence that is discrepant with claims.

    As for the rest of your post, it's off topic. Feel free to rant on, just don't expect an answer from me.
     
  6. Lewdog
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    What's discrepant from claims? Your only evidence presented are percentages from that website along with your comment:

    So I then used your own source, to show that despite your representation that Hillary and Sanders are at 28%, half the GOP field that you denounced, is sitting at 32% which is not a large amount away from Hillary and Sanders.

    You opened that can of worms not me.
     
  7. GingerCoffee
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    @Lewdog, can you not just address what I posted in the OP without making the subject into something broader?

    If you don't think the Politico analysis was comprehensive enough, just say so and move on. I'm not going to argue your political beliefs with you.
     
  8. Lewdog
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    I'm not making it anything broader. You did when you made your condescending remark about the GOP.

    It's not real broad or complex for me to simply state what is being said in that article you posted. Hillary and Sanders have been measured at 28%. Bush, who I have been backing since he announced his run for President, Marco Rubio, and Chris Christie have been measured at 32%. That's only a 4% margin.

    Now, you seem to think that this article somehow represents how "honest" Hillary is. Well, no, the article you posted only measures how honest her remarks have been. It has nothing to do with the rest of her history including Whitewater and her time as Secretary of State (Which in fact the article mentions her untruthfulness in regards to her email accounts.
    .). Please tell me how that is off topic? If you are going to continually cry and bemoan that everyone is picking on poor Hillary Clinton JUST because she is a woman, you are not going to get much sympathy from me, and I assume many others, when you post articles like this and then say any comments that contradict your's are off topic.
     
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  9. GingerCoffee
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    My condescending remark about the GOP? Really? You are defending the clown car?

    Start another thread.

    My main issue in this thread, as I've posted about in many threads of diverse subject matter, is the issue of propaganda and marketing that influences beliefs.
     
  10. Lewdog
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    :superlaugh: YOU make a condescending remark about the GOP in your Woe-is-me Hillary Clinton thread, and then you get upset and call it off topic when someone shows you that half of the GOP you are referring to is at about the same level of honesty as Clinton.

    Ginger, you crack m up sometimes. You really do. I can actually feel this time that you are a bit riled up. I'm going to quit posting here and let you have your little pity party for little Mrs. Hill-Hill.
     
  11. GingerCoffee
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    That's fine, @Lewdog. Take a look at media literacy while you are basking in whatever fantasy you are basking in.

    By the way, I still like you. :)
     
  12. 123456789
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    Wow, Ginger, Lewdog totally owned you ....

    I would have never in a million years seen that coming!
     
  13. GingerCoffee
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    Again, I'm talking about an image that is underserved. That people can recite the charges doesn't make those charges true.

    Barney Frank: A pattern of false accusations against Clinton.
    Considering the effort and the microscopic scrutiny Clinton has been subject to, why aren't there criminal charges? Said charges are always pending, they don't materialize, then new ones are charged.

    And things are blown up into exaggerated outrage by the GOP spin machine.
    Read the following on the Whitewater incident and compare it to the Benghazi hearings:
    The Benghazi Investigation Is The 1990s All Over Again
    According to Gil Troy, a history professor at McGill University and author of The Age of Clinton: America in the 1990s:
    Benghazi hearings were politically motivated and they found nothing on Clinton. The use of personal email accounts is nothing new, in fact the law (or rule) against it wasn't passed until after Clinton was no longer Sec of State. The supposed outrage of classified material in the emails has been seriously exaggerated. It's like a drug company making up a disease in order to sell a treatment for it. (Non-24; 90% of ADD; halitosis).

    Not a single one of Colin Powell's emails were saved for the public record. In fact, he said no one ever asked him about it.
    When the shoe was on the other foot
    Double standard.

    I mentioned in another thread that Bush and Cheney purposefully used the RNC email system to hide things.
    Bush White House email controversy
    The difference, Bush et al never saved or disclosed what was in those emails. Clinton turned her server over with everything on it.

    Double standard.
     
  14. Adenosine Triphosphate
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    Adenosine Triphosphate Old Scratch Contributor

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    Ninety percent? Is that divided from the DSM's five percent estimate, or the (admittedly troubling) 10-20% diagnosis rate in some regions?
     
  15. GingerCoffee
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    Sorry, I made the number up. ;) ADD is seriously over-diagnosed. Not that some kids don't have actual problems. But unfortunately behavior that is the result of nurture not nature is treated with drugs when it shouldn't be.
     
  16. Adenosine Triphosphate
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    Or the criteria are drawn broadly enough to clip the lower portion of the normal range. Like an IQ score of 84, except with attention/motivational ability.
     
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  17. GingerCoffee
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    That too.
     
  18. Lewdog
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  19. GingerCoffee
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    Um, is that comment a Poe @Lewdog?
     
  20. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    No, you are saying Hillary is being treated unfairly and being criticized more than others because she is a woman...well a woman called her a liar. You think Fiorina said that about Hillary just because she is a woman?
     
  21. GingerCoffee
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    Apparently you don't understand the concept of how subtle underlying culture influences perceptions. But it's off topic in this thread which is about the marketing of an image of more dishonesty than the evidence supports.
     
  22. Lewdog
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    Yep I don't understand how anything works do I? Your underlying statement is, that everyone is picking on Clinton because she is a woman. Well a WOMAN called her a liar. I think it's pretty funny really, that it destroys your whole point altogether.
     
  23. GingerCoffee
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    Not what I said.

    Just to address your fallacies here, not to address Clinton. I didn't say everyone, and that's an important issue especially in this case. And a female with a negative opinion of Clinton doesn't disprove anything.
     
  24. Bookster
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    Once again, two of the three websites you site as source authorities are far-left-wing rags. There haven't been criminal charges because the Obama administration controls the Justice Department. I would have thought you'd know that. Even if you and Hillary's cheering section in the press have closed your eyes and ears to Benghazi, the exposure of classified information on an unsecured email server (nobody cares if neener neener neener Powell did it too!), and the selling of State Department influence for personal (Clinton Foundation) gain, how about the fact that she remains married to a known serial rapist, thus condoning his crimes. That in itself should disqualify her from public office, or at least deprive her of the votes of women (and men) who think that rape is, you know, a bad thing.
     
  25. GingerCoffee
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    :rolleyes:
     
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