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  1. Ben414
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    Ben414 Contributing Member Contributor

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    Do you find it offensive to be told "you're going to hell for your beliefs?"

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Ben414, Jun 20, 2014.

    I'm curious as to what non-religious based logic could be behind thinking this is okay. I can't imagine people being okay with others saying "you're going to hell because you are black." How is that some people believe it's fine to say "you're going to hell because you aren't [insert person's religion]" or "you're going to hell because you are gay?"

    If you believe someone is going to hell for their beliefs, doesn't that necessarily imply inferiority on that person's beliefs? How can that phrase not imply inferiority and, thus, negative discrimination? Assigning inferiority is not as bad as taking action against the group (although believing you have to "save" someone by converting them sounds offensive as well), but the belief still sounds offensive to me.

    Regardless of the source, baseless discrimination is baseless discrimination. Many people may have the freedom to think such thoughts--and many people do think them--but what reasons are there to not find them offensive? Should religious freedom force people to be okay with baseless discrimination, as some suggest?
     
  2. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Only when those same people complain when I say gods don't exist. Otherwise someone else's belief that I'm going to hell rarely crosses my mind. I don't connect it most of the time to that person's believing I should go to hell.

    If, on the other hand, they were to say I should go to hell because of [fill in the blank], now that's a different story.
     
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  3. Killian Jones
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    Killian Jones Banned

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    Having the belief that others are 'wrong' in their individual beliefs isn't discrimination. I think your argument is a stretch.

    People having opinions that aren't compatible with your own isn't by itself wrong or discrimination. Discrimination is discrimination.

    EDIT: Ginger said it better than me. :)
     
  4. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
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    Duchess-Yukine-Suoh Girl #21 Contributor

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    I don't know why someone would say that just because of another person's beliefs or because the other person is gay or something like that. That sounds cruel.
     
  5. Killian Jones
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    Killian Jones Banned

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    There are many beliefs that say that if you do/don't do 'X', you will/won't go to 'Y'. Unless you hold or share those beliefs, they don't really apply and why should you care?
     
  6. Thomas Kitchen
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    Thomas Kitchen Proofreader in the Making Contributor

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    Okay, here goes. I'm a Christian, so I'm almost certainly going to offend someone. I don't want to, but that's just how it is. I apologise in advance. :)

    Firstly, I don't agree with people saying, "You're going to hell because you're gay." People don't go to hell just because they're gay, or because they steal, or whatever. They go to hell because of what doing those things mean: being a sinner i.e. doing wrong things, based on God's laws. We're all going to hell if we're not saved, if we're not Christians. Before I was saved, I was going to hell. There's no denying that. So even if someone is not gay, that doesn't mean that they're going to automatically go to heaven, because they're sinners no matter what they do, because let's face it, we all do wrong things. I just wanted to clear that up first.

    Secondly, I'm going to get a lot of heat for this, but

    Yes. Now, notice that I'm not saying an inferiority to the person, but on the person's beliefs. You said it here:

    Inferiority of beliefs happens all the time. Someone says the Ravens won a football game. Another person says they didn't. Thus, someone has to be wrong. Saying that someone is therefore wrong/incorrect about a certain thing does not mean that we think them inferior. We are just stating something that we think, and that we believe is fact (and the fact is, someone's got to be right about who won the football game).

    A more serious example is war. Two "sides" are fighting one another. They both believe different things, be that political or whatever. The phrase, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" is a true one. One of these "sides" is right, and one of them is wrong. We can't help that - that's just life. If you're offended by being wrong, then so what? You're offended. Big whoop. If someone calls you fat, of course you're going to be offended. But if you weigh 300 pounds, are they wrong? No. You're offended, bu they're not wrong. That's what Christians believe about Hell. We are telling people that they are going to Hell (and hopefully people also tell you how to get out of that, but I know some people don't, and that's terrible), and yes, they are going to be offended. But we still believe that what we say is fact, and therefore we want people to get out from that fact!

    Just to be clear, Christians don't save people. God saves people. He just speaks through Christians.

    I agree. But again, Christians believe that what they are saying to others is not baseless, so why should they stop? There are many different religions in the world who have spoken to me about what they believe in. And yes, I've been offended by that. In fact, I'm offended by what you've posted. But that's a natural thing. Believing different things is going to cause offence. Although I'm offended by what you've said, I don't hate you or believe that I should force you into what I believe. That's what freedom's for. In my opinion it's God who changes people's beliefs of Him and Heaven/Hell anyway, but you understand freedom, don't you? I hope so, because if you don't, society is going to go even more downhill.

    Say if someone's planted a bomb near you, and I know that it's there. I shout and call and wave, saying that you need to get away from the bomb as quickly as possible. But you can't see the bomb, and so you choose to ignore it. I'm probably just some crazy freak, anyway. But then the bomb goes off, and you die. That's why you should care. Because beliefs about life and death after eternity is a huge deal.

    Sorry my post is so long, and I'm not going to argue with people now, because I've said what I wanted to say - and the Bible doesn't promote arguing, either. Thank you for reading. :)
     
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  7. Wreybies
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    No, I'm not offended because the statement comes from an epistemological set of dynamics in which I do not participate. It doesn't hold a meaning that has a core of rationality or factuality to which I can attach or from which can emanate a feeling of concern or offense, from me. It holds as much impact, for me, as someone screaming, "It's Mordor for you, buddy, and Sauron's baleful eye for all the buggery you and your mate be partakin' in." See how silly that feels to read? That's how it feels for me when I hear about going to hell for being gay.

    But that's not the same as discrimination. Everyone is free to believe what they want to believe in the country where I live. For me discrimination begins where your beliefs start to impede my ability to enjoy the rights guaranteed to me and every other citizen by secular Law. When that line is reached, now we have a problem.
     
  8. Thomas Kitchen
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    I liked your post because of this bit. No one should force beliefs upon you, no matter how correct they think they are. Freedom is vital. In the end, it's your choice.
     
  9. A.M.P.
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    For me, a religious god makes no sense. The very idea he watches over every single one of us and loves us is just... wild. Unless eternal and infinite omnipotence gives you unconditional divine love eternally and God just happens to like playing with dolls, I just can't imagine what a superior being would be doing with humans.

    Even the idea of hell being run by the devil for the sole purpose of torture makes little sense. Why would he waste his time doing so when there's so much more opportunity?

    Yeah, argument #1 we can't understand the mind of God because it's too grand for our tiny human brains but same goes for knowing what he wants or gives a crap about.

    So, whenever someone tells me Iam going to hell for the color of my hair, my sexual orientation, my belief that religious zeal is more pain than it's worth, I just shrug it off. If God is eternal divine love, he'll be glad I did my best to create a happy world about me as I enjoyed everything he created for me to experience. And then he'll reincarnate me, because a happy eternity in heaven seems awfully phoney without pain, grief, or fear.
     
  10. Adenosine Triphosphate
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    Adenosine Triphosphate Old Scratch Contributor

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    Offend? Probably not. Lower my opinion of them? Yes.
     
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  11. Garball
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    Garball Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand. Supporter Contributor

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    I would be upset if Jesus told me that. Other than that, I really don't care.
     
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  12. Ben414
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    Ben414 Contributing Member Contributor

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    But that wasn't my argument. My argument was that some people say you're going to hell because you are different, implying inferiority. My problem isn't that people have different beliefs; it's when people call others inferior because they have different beliefs in manners such as sexuality or religiosity. Calling someone inferior to me is discrimination.

    I don't see why it should matter whether.

    That situation is not the same. There actually is a team that won and a team that lost. In religion or sexuality, there is no right answer without merely aligning with your personal belief.

    If I said that the Nazis were a great regime and had noble purposes, I would be wrong. But in this case, there is no right or wrong without merely aligning with your personal belief.

    I never said that it makes sense for those with such a belief to stop. I merely said it can be legitimately offensive, and that should be recognized here.

    I'm not offended by people who believe different things necessarily. I don't "agree" with various religions, but I'm not offended in the least by them. I only become offended when they say others are inferior because they hold different beliefs.

    I understand your thought process, but I just can't imagine a similar response (from the public, not from you personally) if x religion said that all blacks are going to hell because they're black. To me, it's offensive even though I don't believe them. Maybe 'discrimination' was the wrong word here... I don't know.
     
  13. Killian Jones
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    Killian Jones Banned

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    This is where you jumped the tracks.

    Holding a belief is not discrimination. Discrimination is an action, not a belief. Yes, sometimes beliefs lead to discrimination, but not always.

    We have laws against discrimination in the public sector, and rightly so, but there's a reason there are no laws against holding personal beliefs, because being 'right' or 'wrong' is a subjective label.
     
  14. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    When I was around 10 years old or maybe a little older a friend of mine found out I liked to play Dungeons and Dragons, and he started going off that I would go to hell for it. It didn't upset me as much as it did my family, my ENTIRE family, who told him to go home and not come back, ever.
     
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  15. chicagoliz
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    chicagoliz Contributing Member Contributor

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    No, I'm not offended, because it's ludicrous. Plus, if Hell is filled with people who are all like me, I would think we'd get along famously and it'd probably be a pretty good place.
     
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  16. Killian Jones
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    Killian Jones Banned

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    I think it's difficult to see the broader concepts with the specificity of a Christian hell injected into the conversation.

    Every individual has the sovereign right to their beliefs, no matter what they are.

    You don't have any right to not get offended.

    You do have a right not to be discrimated against in the public sector.

    None of these statements is violated by someone telling you you're going to hell for being gay. You have the right to walk away.
     
  17. Ben414
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    Ben414 Contributing Member Contributor

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    I don't want to argue semantic so if you want to take away discrimination, then replace it with offensive belief.

    I have no idea what this has to do with my argument. I'm not arguing we should hold laws against this belief. I'm arguing holding this belief is offensive and not protected from offense by some notion of freedom.
     
  18. Adenosine Triphosphate
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    Adenosine Triphosphate Old Scratch Contributor

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    I'd say that type of moral condemnation is extreme enough to cross the line from "your beliefs are inferior" to "you are inferior". It certainly is if someone actively dislikes or hates the person they disagree with.
    Someone who is supremely confident in their faith is not likely to agree with you.
    Unfortunately, that is a core component of the more hard-line forms of many of them.
    That would be approximately as offensive saying that someone is going to burn in hell for being attracted to their own gender.

    However, I think "discrimination" is inaccurate, because someone could hold such a belief without actively infringing on your rights.
     
  19. Killian Jones
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    Killian Jones Banned

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    Um... Yeah everything could be offensive to somebody. However, you appeared to try to equate offense to discrimination, which is incorrect.

    I mean, what is the next step if it is offensive? Awkward silence and everyone goes, 'Oh alright.'?

    I'm think I'm just missing point of this thread.
     
  20. MainerMikeBrown
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    MainerMikeBrown Contributing Member

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    Nobody has the right to force their religious beliefs down my throat. And if someone says I'm "going to hell" because of what I believe, then that to me means they're forcing their views on me.
     
  21. Killian Jones
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    Killian Jones Banned

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    If you are in a public venue, then they absolutely have the right, just as you have a right to walk away.
     
  22. ChickenFreak
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    There's plenty of denying that. I think that you mean that within your belief system, and among people who follow the same belief system as you, it can't be denied. Certainly, yes, if you believe X, then you won't deny X. I certainy deny it, and so do a tremendous number of other people.
     
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  23. Ben414
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    Ben414 Contributing Member Contributor

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    Anything could be offensive, but that doesn't mean some things can produce more legitimate offense than others. Even if you take away discrimination (once again, you're arguing semantics), I'm still saying it equates to a placement of inferiority.

    The point of this thread to counter certain arguments that I have heard. By saying someone is going to hell because they hold different beliefs than you, you are calling them inferior. People have a legitimate right to be offended by such beliefs.

    I have heard some people argue that their placement of inferiority (since we aren't calling it discrimination) should not be offensive since it is based off of religion.

    Another point is that expressing your beliefs can be damaging. If you tell someone they are "inferior" for doing something, it affects them. For example, it would be damaging to have an entire society call someone inferior because he or she was Muslim. Having them feel bad about their own identity is damaging to the individual. It can be like bullying.

    I think it's morally wrong to do so. I wanted to see what others thought.
     
  24. Killian Jones
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    Killian Jones Banned

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    Anytime you say 'my belief 'X' is right and your belief about 'X' is wrong' you are technically saying they are inferior. I had an appointment with my doctor today and she told me I should stop eating so much salt. She is saying the eating salt is inferior to not eating salt, therefore I am in an inferior state.

    But again, so what if you're offended? Who cares? There is no protection against offense and there never will be, nor should there be. It is as impractical as it is impossible.

    Remember this topic is a two-way street. Do you have any idea how many Christians are labeled as ignorant or dumb or delusional? Doesn't this offend and make them feel inferior? Indeed it does, but because everyone has the right to free speech, it all works.
     
  25. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    There is a great saying that fits this topic:

    - U.S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
     
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