Do You Take Writing Seriously?

Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by Edward G, Dec 24, 2010.

  1. Jonalexher

    Jonalexher New Member

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    Yes, I do take my writing seriously.
    No, someone does not have to major in a writing related subject to be a good writer.

    You can't compare everybody to Mr.King, and I for one, have read his autobiography. He is one of my favorites, maybe my favorite. I respect him, but I'm not going to exactly follow in his steps. Especially the cocaine addiction. In my opinion, anybody that is a good story-teller and has at least a "7 out of 10" writing skill, a decent one, can "break into the game." I do agree with all the other things you said, though.
     
  2. Edward G

    Edward G Banned

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    Well put.

    I actually believe that as well.


    Absolutely. I mean, I hold out the possibility that someone under thirty might write something worthwhile, and it has happened in history, but it is highly unlikely.

    Yeah, I'm trying to overcome my shyness in groups. :D
     
  3. Pook

    Pook New Member

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    1. That's the wrong definition of encouragement in the context you have given

    2. Who is to say anything is an unrealistic expectation?

    3. Why does someone have to 'genuinely learn a craft' when life experience and a good story can be enough in itself if you find the right way of getting the message through?

    Seems like a purist way of thinking and narrow mindedness again on your part, we are spinning on a rock in the middle of space and I don't think you can tell people what is and what isn't.
     
  4. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    ...absolutely!... as seriously as life...

    ...it's just what i do because i can't not do it... in this last phase of my life, when i no longer write for money, it's a way to pass on to others all i'd learned in the previous decades and continue to learn, in my 'day job' as a 'practicing philosopher'...

    ...and fyi, no one needs to 'go to school for it'... basic schooling is all that's needed... if one can read well, one can learn to write at least passably... with the requisite inborn talent, can write better than most...

    ...the vast majority of successful writers today and throughout history never took a single writing course, most never went to college... i never went to college and yet folks with multiple degrees up to ph.d.'s paid me $150/hr in my old life to do their writing for them, or fix what they turned out... i rest my case...
     
  5. Jonalexher

    Jonalexher New Member

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    I strongly concur :]
     
  6. popsicledeath

    popsicledeath Banned

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    To address the comments about young writers (like under 30):

    I find people say things like this all the time, that they wish more fresh voices were out there and that it's so hard to write that one needs a lifetime of experiences, etc.

    The truth is, there are a TON of young writers out there doing amazing things. I mean, eventually they grow older and aren't so young, but they were doing great things at young ages.

    The problem (and I think it's a problem) is a) writing communities of all kinds have stopped communicating and b) there exists a passiveness in writers in this era.

    To the first: writing communities used to all about finding that next new voice or next great thing, or pooling fresh ideas and building a movement that becomes the next great thing. This doesn't happen as much, anymore, and most writing communities are much more formal in that they aren't friends and soldiers in the trenches scavenging for information on techniques and agents etc. Instead, everything you think you'd want to know as a writer is available, and fairly readily, with books and blogs and the internet in general. In many ways, writers used to HAVE to talk, and these days they don't have to, so largely don't.

    Connected to the previous point, there's a passiveness nowadays with writing. I think part of it is how big writing has become as a business. We're blitzed with marketing at every turn, and more and more writers and writing is treated with celebrity attention and expectations previously reserved for the movies. Why go out there looking for the next big thing, when most likely some marketing vehicle will inform you what the next thing you should take notice of. And this isn't just for genre fiction either. There's an issue these days where literary writers don't know who's actually being published in literary journals, and instead wait for some big mag/journal or Huffington post article to tell them who they should be reading.

    But, my point is if people are actually out there on their own scrounging for ideas and communities and upandcoming writer, they're out there.

    Adam Haslett was 32 (I think) when his debut short story collection was a finalist for a Pulitzer and Nation Book Award. Karen Russell's first collection was published when she was 26 I think, and it's amazing.

    The thing is, these are 'literary' writers (with amazingly entertaining stories, still) writing short stories, which is about as far from a media darling as a writer can get. So, people don't take notice because they aren't having midnight book releases where hundreds of kids and adults alike dress up like a teenaged wizard. But just because you aren't being directly informed of amazing work being done by young writers, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

    Sadly, these days I have no doubt that writers like Ginsberg and Hunter S. Thompson would be lost in the glitz and glamor of what mainstream fiction has become. We'd know both probably more by their blogs, where they young and writing these days, and then if they happened to actually become well known, probably via some 'oh, that's the guy who wrote the story that someone else adapted as a screenplay that won an Oscar' then we'd all lament how young writers just don't seem to exist anymore, but meanwhile those of us trying to keep our finger on the pulse of fiction would have known who they were for years.

    Really, just because we aren't having amazing young writers forced into our faces like we are with the big names in the biz that have constant marketing blitzs, doesn't mean there are plenty of young writers out there worth reading.

    Also, old writers too. After a lifetime working construction, William Gay decided to put some of the things he'd been writing out there in the world, in his 60s I think. A $400k bidding war for a collection of short stories later, and he's still not exactly a household name, but is an amazing writer that everyone SHOULD read, imo. Talk about a writer that knows how to tell a good story (he's also pretty good craft wise, but wasn't formally educated and does his own thing like having a heavily voiced narrator, but is still amazing as his craft is still precise with what he's doing).
     
  7. popsicledeath

    popsicledeath Banned

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    Yeah, just like many pro ball players don't NEED to go to off-season camps and play little league growing up, but it sure do help.

    The biggest benefit of going to school for writing is it gives an aspiring writer some direction, deadlines, expectations, stuff like that to get their ball rolling. A good instructor will be invaluable, too, though a bad one particularly detrimental.

    For Master's programs, the biggest benefit is TIME. What other situation in a writers life are they going to pay you what is often a livable wage to focus on writing?

    Programs are all different, of course, but funding can be there for writers who show enough potential. My local creativing writing MFA program isn't even in the top 50 rankings, and pays out nearly 12k for each 8 month semester. This is not a ton of money, granted, and there are teaching requirements (3 classes a year, so 1 and then 2 each semester), but it gives someone time to focus on writing. I've known people on both sides of this, those that do the grad school route and those that try to write as an aside to their job, but unless you can retire early or have a full time job that lets you write on the clock, I'd argue the grad school creative writing program is the better path. It doesn't guarantee a thing, of course, but giving a writer time to actually write is a beautiful, valuable thing.

    And of course then there are programs like University of Texas, Austin, where the stipend is over 28k for the 8 month semester, with no teaching requirements. 28k for 2/3rds of the year to do nothing but write, all day, every day? Sign me up.

    Or course, you then have those that will argue a writing program just stifles creativity and forces everyone to abandon the ability to tell a good story. Shrug. Then don't pursue that path. It's not required, but I'll personally try my luck with programs that are going to pay me to focus on writing, as that's more than most writers ever get for their efforts.
     
  8. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Given the discussion that preceded my comment, I'd say it is an appropriate definition, since that is the point that had been made in a prior post (not mine) with which you seemed to be taking issue.

    For someone to say that they wish to undertake an endeavor such as writing, and not do anything to learn about the craft whether it be formal schooling or intensive self-study, and then to expect success...yes, that is an unrealistic expectation. Let me put it another way...what would you say to someone who said, "I have decided to start playing the violin. I don't want to be bothered taking lessons, I just want to be first chair for the NY Philharmonic." Now, what is the difference between the two?

    The answer is in the question, to wit: if you find the right way of getting the message through. Because THAT is what all the fuss about learning the craft comes down to. Because, if your grammar is wrong, your spelling is atrocious, your narrative is confusing, your punctuation is misleading and your use of language is ineffective, then no one will give a hairy rat's backside what your life experience was or how good your story idea might be.

    It may well be a purist way of thinking, but then as we discussed above, there has been a diminution of our art form in recent years, and we continue that trend at our peril. As for narrow mindedness, what, exactly, is it that I am not being open to? And if you can't "tell people what is and what isn't" then what, exactly, are you trying to accomplish, either in writing or in posting on the internet?
     
  9. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    I know a few people who want to pursue an MFA in creative writing precisely for this reason. They'll be in an environment where they can write each and every day while making money (however little it may be) doing something they enjoy.

    I also agree that some people can benefit from such an experience. MFA programs have definitely produced (and will no doubt continue to produce) some great writers.
     
  10. Edward G

    Edward G Banned

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    I will give you that. It is certainly possible to become over-educated as a writer and then find you can't turn out anything but stylish trash. The longer one spends in school, the more conformist they become and the more they come to depend on instructors rather than their own selves. I honestly believe the best degree for a writer is a broad liberal arts associates degree with 15-18 semester hours of writing and literature courses.

    Good point.

    Again, I agree.

    Did you graduate?

    I couldn't agree with you more. I honestly believe that what separates writers from wannabe writers is the willingness to invest in their pursuit. That usually means college, a strong work ethic, and a passion for the art.

    Where do you think people learn to write? They aren't born with the ability to write, and we're not talking about oral retelling of stories, we're talking about writing words and publishing them for the general public to read and enjoy.

    I have to ask: what is a "practicing philosopher." And how do you make money doing that?

    Again, where do you think people learn to write? If you have a story but don't know how to write it down so people of your time and culture can pick it up and read it and enjoy it or learn from it or both, where would you learn how to do that? In school. Grade school, middle school, and high school prepare you for college level writing. College level writing occurs in the first two years of college. Here's my idea of the perfect writing degree, it's an associate in applied science in liberal arts:

    English composition
    American Literature
    English Literature
    The Modern Novel
    General Psychology
    Sociology
    Abnormal Psychology
    Social Psychology
    Biology 1
    Biology 2
    Human Anatomy and Physiology 1
    Human Anatomy and Physiology 2
    Human growth and development
    Humanities through the arts
    Basic Astronomy
    Algebra 1
    U.S. History
    World History
    English Grammar and Usage
    Creative Writing
    Economics
    Criminal Justice

    An associate degree like that can be had at most junior colleges pretty cheap. Some of the classes can be taken online, or a person can take the classes from all different colleges and have them combined into a degree program through Excelsior College.

    If one wanted to go for a more advanced degree, I don't think there's any need to specialize in writing or English. It would be better if they got an advanced degree in something more economically practical.

    I guess that depends on how you define success.

    One could become a copy editor without going to college; of that I have no doubt. But that's not the same thing as being a writer. Editing is only one thing a writer does.
     
  11. Edward G

    Edward G Banned

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    Yeah. What he said!
     
  12. Pook

    Pook New Member

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    You talk utter nonesense and because of this Im choosing to agree to disagree and wont reply to you again.
     
  13. Unit7

    Unit7 Contributor Contributor

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    Add in horrible story ideas and adapt them to a fanfic, and you will become rather famous or well infamous I guess on the Internet... well amongst some areas anyways.
     
  14. Jonalexher

    Jonalexher New Member

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    Edward I'm not looking for any negative conflict here, but just a friendly discussion :]

    I disagree with you, again. Yes, you are right when you say we learn how to write in school (or homeschool). However, one does not need a writing-related major to get his or her novel on a Barnes & Noble shelf. This is what you need:

    1. You have to be a good story-teller.
    2. Read a lot.
    3. Write a lot.
    4. A high school education.

    Those 4 things are musts, in my opinion. But, you are entitled to your opinion :]
     
  15. popsicledeath

    popsicledeath Banned

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    And this isn't possible without school? I don't know what writing classes you've had, but the ones I've had are pretty quickly point out if something is stylish crap.

    As I pointed out somewhere in one of these threads, there's usually a very clear (researchable) progression many writing students take if they focus on academic-based craft-classes long enough. At some point everything feels focused on craft and not as good, as if they've lost the magic of story telling. But eventually students usually get over that and craft becomes ingrained and simply part of their knowledge base.

    It's like this in most fields, though. I graduated from a Russian language program that was designed to make us fluent in just over a year. By the end, none of us were sure we'd actually learned anything. 6 months after graduation most of had a revelation sort of day where we found we could speak Russian pretty well, because the massive amounts of information had finally assimilated as knowledge.

    Same with engineers. I've known people that graduated thinking they knew less than they started with due to information overload, but a few months on the job and they realized it was all still there, and a lot of it.

    There's a process of information turning into knowledge, and it's no different for writers, and those that stick to it get beyond simply producing stylized craft (whatever that means, again, speaking in such generalized ways makes one right via default, but may not have actually said anything useful or on point). The danger is often that many programs don't have the TIME to get writers beyond that point (because, honestly, having observed a lot of writers in academic settings, a lot of writers don't put in the time, and there's no job to put them on the spot, so it takes a long time for the 'oh, wow, I know things' to hit).

    Many times the 'revelation' of knowledge doesn't come about until after a writer is beyond an undergrad program, and then they naturally attribute themselves and not their education as the cause. I've known so many writers to make statements about how education didn't help them at all and instead everything good about their writing occurred on their own, well after education was over with... and then in their writing you see them doing everything you KNOW they were taught to do in the classroom. Usually they just didn't understand how learning becomes knowledge, and of course writers are an egotistical lot.


    Only if the program and instructors suck. Sure, this happens. Just like writers not going to school get dependent on how-to books, or writing forums, or feedback from their local workshop, or advice from their friends.

    People do things far more often than institutions or social pressures or peer pressure or anything else forces them to. Writers prone to conforming to something, will inevitably conform to something, whether it's in a creative writing program or simply reading too much of their favorite author and trying to be like that. Writers everywhere depend on things other than themselves (which imo isn't bad, but needs balanced).

    And again, you can believe what you want about the best degree for a writer. Adam Haslett was a Pulitzer and National Book Award finalist with his debut book, and is a lawyer, so clearly law school is the best degree for a writer! /sarcasm

    I respect your right to have an opinion, but as some who has spent time and energy actually studying and investigating how writing works and can be taught formally, most of the things you say about formal writing, while I sometimes agree, tend to come from a place of relative ignorance. I dunno, maybe you've been studying writing and writers for years and just aren't going very deep to support your generalized statements, I dunno.

    Anytime we try to make declarative statements about writing and writers, we get into murky grounds because it's highly malleable. Lump all education into one group, then try to point out flaws in teaching writing? Doesn't that seem a little bit limited? Ideally we'd be discussing this on a grade-by-grade level, by genre (real genre, not the constructs of marketing) with particular classes in focus, and instructor methods to analyze.

    Good writing instructors exist, good programs exist, good education exists... a lot of good things related to the formal education of writers exists, and works. Maybe it won't work for everyone, and of course there are always bad instructors and programs too. But at no point does any of it lends itself to broad generalizations about 'stylized crap' and conformity, unless you're discounting everything but personal assumption and bias and trying to win an argument or ruffle feathers instead of investigate or inform.
     
  16. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    one who studies the human race pretty much full time and [usually] puts into writing their views, theories, conclusions...

    i don't... all of my writings are freely offered to all who want to partake of them... i do nothing whatsoever for money, having taken a vow some 15 years ago to do all i'm able to do for others for free, for the rest of my life...

    oddly enough, all i've ever needed since then just 'drops in my lap' when needed... i call it all my 'manna drops' and don't even try to figure out how it happens... i don't credit any of mankind's 'gods' for it, since my logical mind can't believe any of them actually exist, other in their creator's/followers minds... [no offense meant to those who do believe in any]...
     
  17. Edward G

    Edward G Banned

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    So, you're an atheist? But you get mysterious drops of manna. Now that's interesting. I'm going to have to follow your links and learn more.

    Later: I assume the poetry on your site is yours. No author is listed or credited. But that's some really good poetry in my opinion. I really liked The Power of Prayer.

    As I see your posts in here, I'll keep stopping by and read some more. I don't like to read a lot of poetry all at once because it ruins my ability to appreciate each work. Are all the poems yours?
     
  18. HeinleinFan

    HeinleinFan Banned

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    Looking at your list of subjects for a hypothetical B.S. in writing, I think I agree that those subjects are useful ... but I don't know that requiring them in college is any more useful than learning them in whatever context.

    I took Algebra I in eighth grade and had taken college-level courses in bio, psychology, literature, history and economics by the end of high school. On my own I studied astronomy, criminal justice, and every writing-related subject listed there except for The Modern Novel. While my public high school only gave me a high-school level understanding of sociology and world history, I think by the time I graduated I was off to a pretty good start. And if I had chosen not to go to college, I would still have been off to a good start.

    Sure, creative writing classes can be helpful. Unfortunately, many creative writing programs are not trying to teach their students how to make their living as a fiction writer. They're trying to provide the training to allow their students to go on to teach creative writing somewhere else. I've heard this from disillusioned college students and graduates from a variety of places, including some professional writers who went to get an MFA and were saddened by the lack of even cursory coverage of the business side of writing.

    Now, there are definitely some exceptions out there. I want to say it's the University of Iowa that has a great creative writing program -- I'm pretty sure I've heard that several times from different sources -- and MIT has a good one though it's not as well advertised compared to everything else MIT does. But in general, it's not at all clear that going to college and taking writing seriously are related.

    I've gradually adopted the stance that being a professional writer requires a handful of things, most of them essential and some of them merely extremely useful. A school-based education doesn't appear on the list. In no particular order:

    1. Read a lot. Books, internet articles, magazines, short stories, scripts, whatever -- read. Read in order to get exposure to a broad assortment of ideas, writing styles, words (the larger your vocabulary the better), common errors, and useful facts.

    2. Read a lot of whatever it is you want to write. The genre. The length (novel or short story) and type (poem or short story).

    3. Write a lot.

    4. Find a writing method that works. Do you write best in long settings, or in short sessions multiple times a day? On your own schedule, or up against a deadline? Handwritten or typed? In a private place like the basement, or in a public place like a park?

    5. Experiment. Outside your preferred length, preferred genre, preferred prose style. You needn't do this often, but you should do it now and then.

    6. Study. Study history, science, math, economics, technology, culture. Ignorance happens to all of us, but like weird sexual fetishes, you probably don't want it to show up unintentionally when you write.

    7. Keep learning. You can never just rest on your laurels and stop learning. By the same token, try to keep abreast of the inevitable changes that will happen in publishing and within your genre during the course of a writing career.

    8a. Send your stuff to editors. You can't sell your work if you don't.

    8b. Learn about e-pub. Because nowadays, it's easier than ever to put your short stories online in Kindle-friendly formatting, which is useful -- short story reprints are often difficult to market otherwise. (Many genre magazines don't take them or pay some low flat fee for them, like $3.00 or $5.00.) Plus, once you have benefited by word-of-mouth and are making small but regular amounts of beer money from stories first published in genre magazines, you can put up a few of your stories which you think are good but which you haven't found a market for. If no one buys them, you don't lose anything; if the story sells, you've made some money.

    9. Write the next thing. 'Nuff said.

    10. Keep writing. Even pro writers will go through temporary career crashes, time periods when -- just by chance -- they aren't selling new novels. You don't get out of these except by writing the next thing, and sending it to an editor.

    11. Make writing your thing. Not someone else's. Never feel that you have to outline "because Author Z does" or because your favorite in-genre book was written that way. Never feel that it's wrong to have imaginary discussions with your characters if that's how you learn who they are. Never allow yourself to feel guilty because you're still learning the intricacies of English grammar and spelling.

    12. If you find yourself going through hell, keep going. This applies equally as a solution to the great swampy middle section of books, to the career crashes that even pro writers go through now and then, and to life.

    I'd certainly invite comments. For me, the above covers the essentials. The reason "go to college to learn how to write" isn't on there is because it's not necessary. Oh, you can say "A writer needs to be able to write at a college level," but that's just a slightly different way of saying that a writer should be competent. And believe me, I've met a fair number of "college grads" in my hometown who couldn't write for crap; the California State University system apparently doesn't require that its graduates write coherently.
     
  19. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    @HeinleinFan - yes, I've definitely heard that the University of Iowa has a fine program. In fact, years ago, there was a woman who had a newspaper column on parenting in Newsday, the Long Island daily, who taught in the program. Perhaps she still does. Her name, if memory serves, was Fern Kupfer, and her columns were really quite good.
     
  20. popsicledeath

    popsicledeath Banned

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    But what do you think people in a good creative writing program are doing? It's most of the things on your list, but with funding in many cases, or while making networking connections, or with a [usually at least moderately successful] writer at your disposal, etc.

    Most [even average] creative writing classes, programs or workshops add to what you can get on your own, not take anything away. And most are going to expect you, or at least encourage you, to do most things on your list as they're training writers just as much as writing.
     
  21. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    a somewhat agnostic one, yes...

    ...it's definitely been pretty weird all these years... some have said i may be 'manifesting' it all myself, but that would be weirder still, imo...

    .
    ...yes, all on the site is my own work, except for the pieces i've posted by a young mentee of mine that are clearly excepted... i'm glad you like the work... that piece in particular...
    ...hope you'll keep browsing... you may find the essays of interest, as well...

    ...see answer above...

    love and hugs, maia

    [btw, i hope you won't take offense to my somewhat sassy latest post on your 'elements of a story' thread, as none was meant... i'm just a cantankerous old broad, at times... one of the few privileges of old age! ;-) ]
     
  22. Edward G

    Edward G Banned

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    Okay, before I start...hold on...okay: I'm actually listening to Mamma Mia by ABBA on my iPod. Now that I'm in the mood...

    Well, it's definitely a hard question to answer.

    .
    I will read the essays, for sure. I've read several of the Katrina poems. Of course, we (my wife and I) are intimately aquainted with Katrina. We were living in Gulfport, MS at the time. So, I really appreciate your work. I will keep reading. I've read several, and I'm going to read another when I finish this post.

    My thoughts exactly. And no, not at all. I appreciate your responses just the way they are.


    Later:

    SH.. I CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT TO PLAY ON MY IPOD TO GET ME IN THE MOOD....:mad:

    I just read one of your essays. My eyes immediately seized on the one entitled: Are Human Sentient Males Necessary. Being a human sentient male, I just had to know. Come to find out--I'm a plague on humanity!

    I was...ahem...taken aback. And then it dawned on me: thank God I'm capable of war, atrocities, weapons, and destruction. How else would I defend myself against those who want me exterminated!

    Hold on...let me turn this up...I just found the song I need. It really speaks to me, but I'm sure you could've predicted it: Colors, by Ice-T.

    Will I keep reading your stuff? Oh, hell yes. :D
     
  23. HeinleinFan

    HeinleinFan Banned

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    @ popsicledeath: Those reasons exactly are why going to college is not on the list of things that are necessary.

    Some programs and some classes are useful -- and a class that is useful when a writer is just a curious noob is not necessarily a class that would be useful after you've gotten half a million written words under your belt. It doesn't help that many writing instructors have no idea how to make it as a pro writer, and some of them actively disparage the "juvenile crap" of fantasy and speculative fiction.

    The programs at University of Iowa and at MIT are exceptions, and they're exceptions for a reason. Many if not most creative writing instructors are not professional writers -- they do not and could not make a living from their work. I've been curious enough to look into creative writing classes at two different colleges in my hometown, and they were less than a tenth as useful as the ones at MIT.

    Now, some of that was no doubt due to differences in the sort of students in the classes, but the instructors at the non-MIT classes were not pros, had never been pros, had no idea about the business side of things (except, in one case, how to become a nonfiction writer), and were very much head-up-butt when it came to non-literary "genre" fiction like romance, science fiction, mystery and fantasy.

    One class instructor, presumably through ignorance rather than malice, misled the students regarding how to get published in genre fiction magazines. I think they honestly didn't know that you just send the stories in, rather than querying (as a general rule).

    After the class was over I asked the instructor about this -- politely -- and it turned out that they had never sought publication for their own work. Yes, they'd been published, but it was strictly a matter of having friends who really liked their essays and who basically told them "send this essay to this address." After a while, a few of those magazines started asking her for articles, and so she'd racked up a dozen or so publication credits over the years, but she remained ignorant of how to get published in a short story magazine or anthology, and (having never done the math or looked into it) thought it was nearly impossible to make a living as a writer.

    So college classes don't make the list of useful things, any more than laptop computers, internet access and a good dictionary will. These are all things that are useful to some writers, perhaps not even a majority; you don't need the dictionary if you have a huge vocabulary, for example, and internet access can hurt writers more than help them because of the distraction factor.

    The list above? That's for everyone.

    Going to a college writing class, buying a laptop, doing NaNoWriMo and whatever else -- those are things that are useful to some people. But the things on my list -- writing, learning, constantly pushing one's abilities in order to improve -- are useful to nearly everyone.

    Pros who don't keep writing, learning, and sending stuff out don't usually stay pros for long. It's not at all clear that writers who haven't attended formal classes have been hindered thereby.
     
  24. popsicledeath

    popsicledeath Banned

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    Yes, you're right, part of the problem is that writers will take a class an expect revelations to come without much effort.

    You know, just as many, if not way more, writers sit at home doing all the things on your list and never make it. It's just harder to document, and harder to grind an axe since the writer themselves are to blame.

    If we wanted to, we could rebuke and dismiss any aspect of writing. Claim anything a writer is doing is useless because it's only helpful to some writers. Tell every aspiring writer to do what's on your list and it's only going to work for some, and even still, the success rate is going to be practically nil as with all things writing related.

    You're usually a very level headed guy, but this sort of reply is getting into the realm of being complete one-sided hyperbole, and exactly the kind of thing I get sick of seeing. Not because it hurts me personally (I do that plenty enough by being one of the most critical people I know when it comes to creative writing programs and teaching in general), but because then nonsense that any and all formal instruction is worthless starts to seep into the consciousness of aspiring writers based on a loud-minority with an axe to grind.

    You think there are only two creative writing programs in the nation that are worthwhile and that many, if not most, creative writing instructors do not and could not make a living from their work?

    You do realize that many, if not most writers period don't make a living at their writing. One study I saw estimated 500 novelists in America could make a living wage from their writing alone, and that most, even best selling and highly awarded writers, end up having to teach or do conferences or write nonfiction or articles, etc.

    You did what I suggest everyone does, actually look into the programs and find one that works for them. As with everything, ever, some are good, some bad, some work for some people, some for others.

    To try to say that only TWO programs are the exceptions is pretty ludicrous. My local school's MFA for creative writing program is ranked 86th in the country, and has two instructors who were on Amazon's top ten books of the year (something Iowa and MIT didn't manage), both best-sellers and highly regarded literary writers. Another had a well-received book come out last year and is a highly acclaimed editor of a successful literary journal. Arguably the best teacher among them is still not even tenured, and has a book coming out this spring that is already getting rave reviews and blurbs from very prominent authors.

    Sure, if I go to the local community college it's a bit different. Oh, wait, one of the main adjuncts there teaching creative writing graduated from Iowa and is meaningfully published.

    The truth is, it's almost laughable trying to get any respectable job teaching creative writing these days, because besides a Master's degree you typically have to be very meaningfully published (and short stories in journals used to be enough, but these days they start asking about what books you've successfully had published).

    Sure, there are terrible creative writing teachers out there. There are terrible everything out there. But to try to pretend that's the rule is absurd. If we're going to base writing advice and opportunities we'll take on 'this one time' sort of anecdotal stories, we should all just quit now. It's a business rife with failure, and I can guarantee you more writers have failed or had bad experiences by sitting home thinking they could do it all on their own, than by actively seeking knowledge and instruction and resources.


    Yeah, the ironic thing though (and disappointing) is that most college courses can very literally include and lead to the things on your list, but because of a bad experience you're going to cast a shadow over all formal writing instruction?

    Having a Kindle may be a way for many writers to have better access to reading, but if you bought a Kindle that had a defect and then couldn't get a refund, does that suddenly mean all Kindles are crap and most writers won't get anything out of having one?

    And of course, people get the chip on their shoulder or whatever goes on to elicit such defensiveness, and think when someone says 'this is what we're actually doing in college courses, and it's helpful' that person is actually saying 'if you don't go you'll never make it, loser!'

    I've seen and discussed and researched a lot about teaching writing, and I can assure you there will always be bad experiences and bad instructors. There will also always be bad students and bad writers. But you know, sitting home trying to make it on your own, can have just as many if not more pitfalls.

    How many people read a lot, and it doesn't seem to be helping their craft. I've known a ton of people who reader a TON and are terrible writers. And often it's because they're reading a lot of 'what they want to write' so can never quite write better than a very small scope of what people are already writing, and their writing always feels dated and stagnant even in the genre/style they want to write and read voraciously in.

    Write a lot. Sure, it's good advice, but there are tons of people that do it, and it goes nowhere. They aren't learning how to do much more than type faster.

    Find writing methods that work. This is the biggest one, where people find something that works for them, and then when faced with a deadline or expected to actually produce at a reasonable pace, can't, because what personally worked for them doesn't seem to produce enough work. In dozens of various classes, workshops, groups, etc, I've only ever met a few people who actually wrote enough naturally, on their own, having found what works for them, that they could produce what even a basic fiction class expects without then having to step their game up (we're talking usually only two stories in 4 months, and most people I've seen, even those that have been 'dedicated' for years, couldn't produce 2 stories in 4 months).

    You don't think people should experiment often? I guess I'm lucky, because even in the various undergrad writing classes I've taken, the freedom to experiment was not only allowed, but encouraged. Don't 'write what you know' (that adage that is terrible), write what you want to know and are trying to figure out.

    Keep learning is always great advice, and I've sadly seen folks go years without learning, because they simply didn't even know what there was to learn. They'd read a lot in the genre they wanted to write, figure out what worked for them, and then stagnate. The best thing about formal schooling is you're always being introduced to new ideas and perspectives, so even when you don't agree or have a bad experience, it can teach you something new or solidify the things one does believe.

    But blah blah. The point is anything anyone has to say about what's a good idea for writing can be refuted if we want to start citing personal anecdotes or showing how it can backfire.

    The thing I don't get is why there's such bias and axe-grinding pointed toward education (EDUCATION!) when trusting writers to figure things out on their own has left more corpses of failure in it's wake than formal creative writing instruction every could. There are MILLIONS of people trying to make it on their own as writers, and the truth is most will fail. But even people like me who have heavily benefited from formal education don't go around casting doom and gloom on people doing it themselves. Instead, I'm saying 'hey, there are also these resources you can take advantage of' and the response from certain groups of writers is almost always 'yeah right, I had a bad experience once and .... all formal education is sham.'

    I really am curious why the hate and bias? I've had bad experiences in academic settings too, but instead of giving up or declaring it all to be terrible, I sucked it up and tried to still learn something about myself and my writing, and almost always ended up learning more than other classes.

    I think a lot of the bias comes from people who tried the formal training route, thinking it would be the 'easy' way to make it big, and got pissed when they realized you have to work just as hard as any other time as a writer (if not more, as there are suddenly tangible objectives and goals one has to meet).

    I don't get it though, HeinleinFan, if you checked out some courses and they were terrible (which is the right thing to do and what I recommend, to the point of insisting to conference with the instructor or sit in on a class before attending), and it didn't work out, why is that the end of it? If you admit MIT and/or Iowa are great programs, why not pursue them? Or did your bad experience in one class really mean all classes are of no benefit to you (or anyone else)? Part of the problem may well have been you were just too advanced for the class, and needed to seek something more advanced (this happens, and in some colleges you can appeal to skip lower level courses and jump into upper division ones if your work is ready for it).

    But really, if you acknowledge MIT and Iowa ARE good programs, why not try them? Or do you think they just won't be any help to you?
     
  25. shabit87

    shabit87 New Member

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    Yes and no, I'm very serious about how I deliver my writing and how its written, but sometimes I am not as serious about what I'm saying. The same is true for the opposite. I can easily write something in a quite casually matter and moreso concentrate on the content rather how I deliver it and how well its written. Hope that makes sense.
     

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