Castle makes a feature of doing that sort of thing. Of course, CSI, Castle and House have (or had) access to legal teams most of us here could only dream of (but might have nightmares about).
Digitig, would you immediately recognise the inspiration for the plot in Post #22? Would you consider it plagiarism? I'd really like the view of someone else familiar with The Desert Song.
I haven't seen/read The Desert Song so I couldn't tell you. But even without knowing the plot of the story you are afraid of plagiarizing... I think you are going to be fine for the reasons I pointed out. I've never heard of someone getting in legal trouble for writing something that was inspired by another story. Again, I think the only problem you will run into is from your audience if they think your story is too close to another... but even then I think you'll be fine. You'd have to like steal the plot from a really famous/iconic movie like Star Wars for people to get mad enough for it to effect the success of your book. I'm really into a lot of these crime drama shows. So, I've seen shows like Castle, CSI, The Mentalist, NCIS, etc. And a lot of them have a "Strangers on a Train" episode. And if I really wanted to I could really get into the structure of a lot of these plots and probably find a lot more similarities that I didn't think of at the time between some of the episodes of a lot of these shows. It's rare to find a completely original plot these days. Whatever plot you come up with has probably already been done to some degree. What separates you from the pack is your writing style and mechanics.
The Desert Song is an operetta. Thanks for your opinion, agentkirb! ETA: Where was The Mentalist's Strangers on a Train episode? The Mentalist's one of my favourite shows.
Also, if the question were to come up in court, your discussion of it on the Internet could certainly be found and brought in as evidence. It certainly makes it look like you are wondering how close you can make it and still get away with it.
Really? This plot: (In one sentence: an Arab chieftain leading an anti-colonial rebellion infiltrates a fort and uses his good friend, an enemy general's son, as a decoy) is similar to: A general's son disguises himself as an Arab chieftain and leads a rebellion? (aka: one sentence summary of the operetta) And no, I'm not being sarcastic. I really wonder what you see as me trying to make it similar enough to get away with it. Sure, the name that the general's son uses for his alter-ego and the Arab chieftain's nickname are the same. And then there's the uprising. But the details are different.) What are you saying? That the plot is still too similar? Or are you saying that this thread makes it seem like that's the case? And in any case, I don't think it's similar enough to get me into hypothetical copyright infringement trouble.
I'm saying that the entire discussion, "What if I change this? Or this?" would weigh against you if a question of plagiarism ever came up in court. It speaks to premeditation. Google and other search engines regularly catalog the threads that can be viewed without a login, which includes everything under Writing Issues. I will also point out that this site takes the matter of intellectual property very seriously.
OK. I know that last point. So do I. And another thing. I really don't want to get myself into trouble. My mistake for wording the thread that way. (I won't do it again).
Yes. I would recognise it as "The Comedy", with elements of "The Quest" from Brooker's classification of the seven basic plots. I would also recognise it as an instance of the narrative trope "Love across battlelines". It's less likely that I'd actually recognise it as being The Desert Song, although it would seem oddly familiar even if I couldn't place where from. All together now: It depends how you do it!
What, do you think that the plot for Star Wars was original? Lucas openly admits many of his sources, and even references some of them in the films. Using a plot is not plagiarism. But if you put recognisably the same characters in recognisably the same situation doing recognisably the same things then that could well be going beyond plot and into plagiarism. I could mention the TV Tropes website, but then we wouldn't see you again for a couple of weeks.
I haven't seen The Desert Song and actually only heard about it yesterday lol. But I have a question - why do you insist on using the same names as The Desert Song? The truth is, a name like "Red Shadow" would be picked out a mile away - I literally read the name in passing, by accident yesterday because I was googling my own villain (Shadow Walker - hardly too original) and upon reading your post, I immediately thought, "Hey, I remember that name..." This is from someone who knows nothing of the operetta and has never seen it and has no interest to see it, and STILL I remembered the name clearly enough. Now what do you bet that someone who has seen The Desert Song identifying the name right away? Now an even better question: how much do you bet a knowledgeable, educated agent and/or publisher is gonna recognise the name right away? The immediate assumption, wrong or right, would be: copycat or fanfic (read: dump in slush pile right away, don't even waste your time) Plagiarism or not, do you really want your readers - whether they're in the majority or not - to associate your book forever as a copycat of The Desert Song? Cus trust me, whether or not your story actually IS a copy is irrelevant, your readers will think that anyway and likely, won't even bother reading the rest of the book because, wrongly or not, you've been labelled as a copycat. Do you really want to build a reputation like that? The impression that you give is often as important as the truth. And to be honest, you'd just never get published - anyone reputable who you'd actually want to handle your MS isn't gonna be interested in what comes across as a copy or fanfic.
Yes, let's remember that seeing it on TV doesn't mean they just decided to use it. We don't see all the legal steps taken to ensure they didn't get sued.
If it bothers you enough to seek answers on it then that should instantly tell you that you're doing something wrong. I draw inspiration from a lot of things and I don't expect people to see that in my writing even if I've drawn inspiration from something popular. The only time someone has spotted something in my writing and notified me of it was when they could see that I had been inspired by Palahniuk. To be honest I was surprised when I heard it - I read half a dozen of his books when I was 14 (I'm in my 20s now) and apparently that shows in my writing style. But (to the best of my knowledge) I haven't taken anything from any of his stories and if I were to do so I definitely wouldn't share that story with anyone.
Star Wars itself probably wasn't original either, but it was famous. I don't think The Mentalist has actually done one. But I know for sure NCIS and CSI have done it and referenced the movie by name in the episode. Someone pointed out that just because they were able to get away with it on TV it just means they knew what they had to do to not get sued... which is true. However, I think if it were illegal to steal a very unique plot element from a movie... they would've gotten in trouble for it.
Yes, that's a very good question. And the answer is it's because I want to pay homage to this operetta, because it inspired the piece. There are cases of the same names being used for similar characters before, as references. And those books have been published.Lord of the Flies is one. Maybe it's due to the author's reputation in those cases, though. And that particular name has been used before, including for a role-playing game character who was openly inspired by the original, and for a ninja character. It's distinctive, but it's hardly Superman or Batman, or the Scarlet Pimpernel, which are associated with only one character. There's a book from 1929 where there's a character called the Red Shadow. My google results for the name turn up the ninja movie and heaps of other stuff before The Desert Song. And of course they would recognise it. It's a shout out, as is the entire plot. Whether they'd see it as one, though, is different. I'm a musical geek and I'd never name a character the Red Shadow just for the sake of copying it. Because I want to play a tribute to the show, and I think using the name would be a nice way to do it. a reference to the operetta, as is the use of the name Margot. I intend people to recognise it. If I didn't, I wouldn't use them. Are you saying it's wrong to use the same names for characters or a similar plot as references? And also, there'll be references to lines in the songs and to the operetta as a whole.
I haven't really taken anything from The Desert Song, except the idea of a rebel leader in the Sahara nicknamed the Red Shadow in love with a girl named Margot. And I don't really think I'm doing anything wrong as such. Since the plot is so different from the original, involving a young Arab leader disguising himself as a cameleer, travelling to the fort with one of his tribeswomen and his lieutenant/guardian and inventing a cover story to get information to his rebel group, then using his white friend as a decoy to keep his real purpose secret while falling in love with a white girl, IMO the names could be seen as homage to the original. I have no control over what other people think, though. But the thing is, reusing the same storyline (which I'm not), or even the same character names isn't a problem. It's all about how you approach it.
Things like that - if protected at all - aren't illegal (or stolen) if the show's lawyers got permission - and I'm quite sure if they were required to, they did. Not to mention they weren't acting as if it were an original idea - they did actually reference the movie.
Am I right thinking referencing would be having some lines like "Going to do the Desert Song thing again where you sneak off?" Or "have you got another identity, like in The Desert Song?" Or even "Blue heaven and a moonlit desert sky on a flying carpet. My idea of romance. I loved the Arabian Nights." (Since said story is set in approximately the 1920s in a world with steampunk technology- but they do have electricity, including radios, and magic, said references would actually be in keeping. Forget the fact that those first two are really lame IMO. But I love that last one. I'm definitely using it at some point. It's subtle enough to say, "get it?") And for added reference points, I'll probably actually mention a radio playing The Riff Song while reporting on the hero's raids and his thoughts about how appropriate it is or talking about the "drumming of mechanical hoofbeats across the desert." ETA: Thanks everyone for your answers!
Incidentally, when I mentioned the plot, I got a comment that it sounded like a desert romance novel. Since The Desert Song's plot is basically that of The Sheik by E.M. Hull with added rebellion, extra characters, played down menace of the "Arab" hero, a symbolic rape, ("I wish he would make the decision for me", "I am going to make you love me!", and how Margot's so frightened and singing about killing him with his sword), singing, and a literal disguise, (it was heavily inspired by the popularity of books like The Sheik and Beau Geste. The French Legion thing is from Beau Geste, the dancer as (suspected) villain from Sons of The Sheik, and the kidnapping of Margot and her eventual Stockholm Syndrome from ) and most desert romance novels borrow from that book (well the Valentino movie), just like this story's plot is basically The Desert Song's plot, with the white guy as a decoy, stuff about inflitration and love vs. honour, and magic, as well as a new relationship for the hero and his lieutenant, who's years older than him, essentially my teacher is right. BTW, I once had an idea for a cyberpunk parody called "The Riffs of Morocco Place", which sort of made fun of those Shakespeare-in-high-school remakes, by doing The Desert Song in the future and turning the Riffs into a bunch of hackers and General Birabeau into a police captain. And Margot and Pierre are cousins.
