Does posting work here harm our chances of being published?

Mostly opinion

I found this thread and all its comments very enlightening. The concept of "published" has taken on new meaning since my days when it meant printed on dead trees.

I have posted on this site and one other a short chapter of a novel. It represents about 1/50th of the work. I think it's close to being a finished chapter. So I hope that aspect does not diminish my prospects with an agent or publisher.

But the internet! What happens if I sent my full novel to a beta reader who, for whatever reason, posted it online? Not that I'm not careful. Still ...

[rant ensues]

I would have this question to an agent or publisher who upturned their nose at a worthy manuscript simply because some of it could be uncovered by enterprising people on the internet: "Are you high?" I mean, it's their business, but let's think about this.

A fraction of people have viewed, ahead of release, a great number of things. And this fact does not cause those in the money-making business to flip out. Bootlegs of unreleased music have appeared. That didn't stop record companies from cashing in later. Bootlegs of theater films have gotten out. Theaters didn't suddenly yank the films off their screens.

Reading a book is different than viewing part of it on a computer screen (even if every potential reader did so, which is not going to happen). A vid of a theater release is different than sitting in the theater with that Dolby sound and wide screen. Hearing a bootleg CD of Jimi Hendrix is different than getting the actual new double vinyl LP "Valleys of Neptune." And as ALL those other industries have learned, albeit kicking and screaming along the way, most people who see those bootlegs go on to BUY the real deal. It's a version of word-of-mouth.

Does anyone recall how the record companies were upset when people recorded songs off the radio with cassette recorders? Oh, the humanity. Who can forget how the Grateful Dead went out of business because videos of their concerts were distributed amongst the Dead Heads? [sarcasm]

Now this doesn't change how would-be publishers react when some assistant does the Google and declares, "Aha! Already published. See? Right here on this website with a thousand clicky-thingies per googlies. We'll never sell a million. Tell the author to sod off."

Was that over the top?

 

A little.

From the publisher's perspective: You've found bits and pieces of this story floating around the Internet. The writer is sending these pieces around seeking approval. There is consequently a high likelihood that complete manuscripts have also been made available to the public for free. As soon as the book becomes available for purchase (after the publisher has incurred the bulk of its expenses!), the freely distributed manuscript will surface, greatly cutting into the profits. Furthermore, the author is unknown, so the book is a gamble from the outset. Most of the time, publishers eat a loss on books by new writers.

Also, professional writers don't float samples of works they are preparing for submission, and publishers prefer to deal with professionals. Professionals don't change their minds and try to break contracts, and are generally far less of a headace to deal with.

But speaking of breaking contracts - if the gamble does not go well for the publiser, and the book just isn't selling, there is the clause in the contract about first publication rights. Lo and behold, there are copies of large chunks of this dog of a book that have been on the Internet for years. Wow, the author entered into the contract fraudulently, and the contract is null and void. Our attorney will contact the author and demand return of all advances and other compensation paid out.

(No, I do not work for a publisher. These scenarios are for illustration purposes only)

 

that's frightening.

 

sad, but true!

 

I am indeed glad that I have scanned through and read many of the more lengthy posts through this entire topic.

In fact, as a kind suggestion, it would be nice to have a detailed write up of some sort on the very topic discussed and have it stickied, for reading through 10~pages of posts and filtering out the most significant points becomes a bit tedious after a while.

This definitely cleared up many of the doubts I had about the beginning of a publishing procedure, and I am indeed grateful for the information that people here have provided. Thank you

 

Cogito,

If I intend to self publish wouldn't it be irrelevant
to have posted a story or two on the internet?
I have always worked alone and I may as well work alone now.


Thank you


Jack {the Knife}

 

Even if you self-publish, few will want to buy your book if they can read it at no cost on the Internet. Even if te self-published version is somewhat more polished, it's not your wisest choice.

Also, supposed someone read it online in an earlier form, and you did a lot of work and made it much better for your published version. "Oh yes, I remember reading this," your prospective reader says. "It wasn't really all that great. I think I'll give this one a pass."

No one is talking about whether it hurts to have pieces other than what you wish to publish posted on the Internet. I don't think that would be a problem unless your posted work went viral as an example of horrible writing.

 

Cogito,

Thank you...


Jack {the Knife}

 

All the stuff in this thread is just reinforcing my idea for getting critique here.

The Plan:
1. Write my novel as best I can.
2. Write a short chapter of a fake novel that's comparable to the first in quality and storytelling ability (in my eyes).
3. Get critique on the pseudo-novel, and then apply the critiques to my real novel.
4. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Seems like an iffy way to go at first, but then I think... the only thing you guys as readers and critiquers will miss out on is the actual plot and storyline of the real novel, which I wouldn't want you to critique me on anyway. Seems like a good system to me, and it'll also help me to apply your advice to my writing, rather than to just the one piece.

 

Some writing forums have boards only members can visit, where threads are automatically removed after 30 days. This allows the author to retain first publishing rights.

 

That's not much of a guarantee. Some "members" are archive bots and spiders, squirreling away writing for web searches or less benign purposes. There is really no such thing as a temporary posting, and unless the access list for an area of a site is hand-picked, it might as well be visible to anonymous guests.

 

Archive bots in service of sites such as those that have the board in question, particularly the site I have in mind, have parameters & patrol perimeters. As for second party bots, any respectable site has protection against computer acc. creation. Your argument against such a board is based on ignorant speculation, not that I was suggesting one should be created here in the first place.

- Andy

 

My speculation if far from ignorant, and I remind you to read the rules regarding insulting other members.

As a moderator on this site, I have detected and purged a good number of parasitic bots associated with "unsavory" locations. I'm also certain that for every bot account I have squashed, ten more have gone undetected.

Whatever account creation protections are in place, there are malicious persons finding ways to circumvent them.

Do not be too complacent about the safety of "members only" areas of any forum having more than a couple dozen members.

 

A publisher is a business man...If he invests his time and money on something and a digital version exists on the web, free to download, then whats the point of printing the first book.

 

Well, f. I officially hate the "friend" who recommended I post my stuff on fictionpress.

It was a long looooong time ago, and has since been deleted, and reworked to the point of needing to squint to see similarities and will need reworked again, but f. That was the entire friggin' thing.

I now wonder if I should bother with reworking it at all. *sigh*

 

If it has been that heavily transformed, maybe it is now a derivative work and no longer the original work. Just throwing that out there - I haven't looked specifically at that issue. If it could be called a derivative work, could you still sell first rights?

 

I'm not sure, I clearly need to do my homework on this. I peg being 18 and very VERY naive as my excuse, but publishers aren't going to care how young and stupid I was I suppose. Again, it's very different now, and will be I'm sure with the numerous other rewrites and reworkings of it I anticipate doing it'll be even more different, but some plot points are still there, and some of the characters are still the same or similar or have the same or similar names. It might be to the point of being derivative, but I'm not sure that makes it more sellable as a first rights sort of thing.

 

i suggest you polish it to a faretheewell and submit it anyway... but be up front about it having been posted online long ago in a much earlier, significantly different version...

 

I think that the literature industry will not go the same route as the music industry and film industry who suffer from pirate downloads. If most of a book is available for free who is to stop it being downloaded.

Although I have flaws in my writing and may never be published I have decided to keep my cards close to my chest about my novel. I might write a short story with a similar theme and take elements of short stories on here to further my novel.

 

Safe to discuss projects online?

Is it safe to discuss your ideas online, on forums like this and others?

I of course want to blather about the stuff I am working on/want to work on, seek help with the issues I have - but I'm afraid that my ideas might get stolen, or used by someone else who gets them out first.

 

I think ideas and short stories/general writing practice are fine in a forum like this -as long as you accept that anything you put online is considered self published and so unlikely to be considered by a publisher for that reason. For that reason, I would not self publish a novel online if I were serious about wanting to get it published.
I have discussed my idea/theme for a novel at length on another writing forum and found the debate/discussion very productive. I think that there are only so many ideas to go around; the strength of a novel or story lies in how the writer brings it to life, rather than the original idea.

 

No, I don't mean actually just posting the stories online, I mean what you are doing: "Here is my outline" or "Here is my premise" or even "Here's an idea I need some assistance fleshing out", with the intention of getting help...

...and then someone snagging it and using it before I'm finished and getting it out there.

 

Ideas are not copyrightable. But they are also pretty useless, from a writing perspective. Two writers starting from the same story outline will come up with completely different stories.

 

I agree; I have had exactly the same idea as countless other people, including some fairly well known writers. However, I would like to do it from a gritty, modern, realist perspective - and in the present tense, which should make it totally different to what has gone before.
Well, that's the idea...

 

as cog noted, an idea is nothing... it's what you develop it into that matters... and ten writers will turn out ten entirely different stories/novels/scripts when starting with the same 'idea'... none of which will be anything like what you had in mind...

so it's not 'first' that counts... only 'best' and 'most marketable'...