1. JJ_Maxx
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    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    Edward Snowden runs from the long arm of the US

    Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by JJ_Maxx, Jun 24, 2013.

    It seems there are a lot of countries that aren't taking the US very seriously or are just playing lip service with extradition. Hong Kong obviously wanted to stick it to the US and said the paperwork was filed incorrectly. (I live 3,000 miles away and even I could see the tongue-in-cheek!)

    Now he's landed in Russia and the US is all like, 'Hey Russia, we revoked his passport, so the only place you should let him fly is back here.'

    Russia is all like, 'Yeah, we'll do our best US!'

    Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

    All of this national posturing is funny to watch but sad at the same time. The US is desperately stamping its feet like some whiny popular kid on the schoolyard who can't get their ball back.

    I do think he is a traitor and should be tried for espionage and sentenced by the courts. He may have felt justified in what he did, but if you wanna be a martyr, you can't escape the gallows.

    Remember, justice is blind to anything but the law. We teach our children that two wrongs don't make a right, so we can't justify criminality, even if it exposed more criminality. (Which I don't think it did.)

    He might make it to Equador, but if I was the US, I would scatter a couple fighters and force the plane to land in Miami.
     
  2. Mithrandir
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    Mithrandir Contributing Member

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    I don't think he'll escape. Eventually, even if he gets away, he'll never be able escape the stealth drones. It'll happen when he doesn't expect, when he's living a normal life, when everyone's forgotten him. Maybe it'll be less ostentatious -- poison, a knife, a heart attack -- but Snowden should never have messed with the Intel Community; they never got out of Cold War mode, just added 9/11 mode to it.

    That's my inside-nut talking. I'm not really that cynical. But who knows?
     
  3. Wreybies
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    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    You're not wrong as regards the intel community and it's mode of thinking as regards those who break the solemn oaths. I worked for ESC my entire career in the USAF. It has since been subsumed by SAC, but when it was still a separate command, we had a presence at NSA. Many in my field worked there at one time or another, myself included.
     
  4. JJ_Maxx
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    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    All of these intel operations have unspoken, unwritten codes of loyalty and conduct.

    He wasn't even a distinguished career guy. He was wet behind the ears, finally got top-secret clearance and made himself an Internet hero and international royalty, meanwhile giving China US secrets in exchange for safe passage and preferential treatment.
     
  5. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    He disclosed what was for the most part already known. Osama Bin Laden in hiding never used a cell phone (if Zero Dark Thirty had it right) because they were well aware of the surveillance. We still got him.

    What I fail to feel is outrage that Snowden is some horrendously bad guy. The Catholic Church covering up for pedophiles at the highest level in the hierarchy, that makes me feel outrage. GW Bush and his gang of NeoCons taking us into a war based on lies told to the American public, that makes me feel outrage. The fact no one's gone to jail for the highest level of financial shenanigans that led to the economic disaster, that makes me feel outrage.

    Someone telling the public there's more domestic spying going on than the government has admitted to, sorry, not feeling the outrage.
     
  6. Wreybies
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    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    All of my yes. All of it.
     
  7. JJ_Maxx
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    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    It's simple. It's called evidence. We know that Edward Snow broke the law and we have the evidence to convict him.

    All those other things you mentioned are nice, broad, fire-up-the-liberal-base log lines, but they are not provable in a court of law. If they were, they would be brought to justice. Unless you assume that every single person in a position to do something about it legally refuses to do so.

    That's a bit unrealistic.

    I also find it interesting that the only things that outrage you are along Democrat party lines. Benghazi doesn't outrage you, the IRS altering the presidential election doesn't outrage you.

    Seems to me your outrage is spoon-fed to you by someone other than your own conscience.

    Something to think about.
     
  8. Mithrandir
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    Mithrandir Contributing Member

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    I'm not outraged at what he told the public; I'm outraged at what he told the Chinese and Russians in private. I can't get behind that. Countries are predatory, and I'm afraid of what lies in the bushes -- especially now that America is "on top" so to speak. We're King of the Hill now, which means we're also the target now (like the UK after WW1 and Rome near the end).
     
  9. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Treason is treason, and should be vigorously prosecuted. He should consider himself lucky that there is no formal declaration of war, which would make it a capital crime.

    It'sutter foolishness to think countries should not have secrets related to national security, and that the dislosure of such secrets does not undermine security.
     
  10. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Would that "treason is treason" also have applied to Daniel Ellsberg?
     
  11. Wreybies
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    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    And that such breaches don't involve the endangerment of lives.

    A million years ago, Cog, you and I were both part of a conversation here in the forum where someone thought I was making a joke about the idea that how secure material is handled is itself a secure subject. The issue with this kind of leak often has less to do with the information itself that is compromised, and more to do with how that information gives clues to the function and day to day operation of the intel world, its P&P, so to speak.
     
  12. JJ_Maxx
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    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    Ellsberg would have been found guilty if not for the gross governmental misconduct involved in his case, not because the judge cleared him of wrongdoing.
     
  13. GingerCoffee
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    That's quite a bit of fantasy you've posted there.

    I'm pretty sure it's the Democratic Party that is in the White House prosecuting whistleblowers. Ed Schultz on that liberal news outlet, MSNBC, was calling Snowden a coward tonight saying he should return to the US and defend his actions if he really believes in them.

    And no, I'm not outraged at Benghazi. Mistakes were made, maybe by the CIA for all I know, it wasn't a good thing. But on the scale of outrage, it ranks about a 2 and the fact Darrel Issa is trying to make political hay of it ranks higher, including my outrage of the tax dollars he's wasting.

    There's no there there in the current IRS kerfuffle, let alone altering the Presidential election outcome. Look at the evidence not the Issa hype. Then look up Republican Party caging for comparison.

    But it's pretty incredible you would even suggest it had a political implication. :eek: The whole point was, if these were political groups they didn't qualify for the tax break. And, if you think the lack of a few tax dodges affected the last election, have you done the math? How much money do you think that represented within these purported "educational" groups?
     
  14. Macaberz
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    Macaberz Pay it forward Contributor

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    I don't think Edward Snowden should be dragged before court. Not because he didn't do something illegal but because he won't get a fair trial. I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in the American Justice system. Too many innocents have been injailed and too many guilty have escaped all form of justice.

    I think that what he did was paramount to heroic. What the NSA has been doing by spying all over the globe has never, ever in the history of menkind happened before. I cringe when I read that people aren't suprised by this. They should be, even if they "already knew". Not one person, empire or nation has had the level of access to information that the NSA now has. Not one. It reeks of totalitarianism. What is the NSA but a paranoid, schizophrenic, lying control freak with saliva drooling from the corners of its foaming mouth? The same goes for the GCHQ.

    But let's put aside wether or not Edward Snowden should be punished. There can be no doubt that this level of espionage is unprecedented. I have a technical background, I know a thing or two about data. I never suspected it was even possible for any agency to do this. The amount of data involved is staggering. Let's also not underestimate how much data can be gathered about you. The average interenet user is recorded in more than 500 databases. Even if you have been careful they could still figure alot about you out through friends and family. Never in the history of menkind has privacy been violated so thoroughly. That is why I wish that Snowden will escape the clutches of the US police state, which somehow feels like it needs to control every nation on earth and deems itself a superpower.

    I wish for Americans that their country becomes the scientific space frontier once again instead of this hypocritical nation that involves itself in business that is none of its concern, that spends more money on its military than the next 26 countries combined and destroys $7B in miitary gear because transporting it would be too costly.

    Sorry for the anti-america rage. I have been there two times now, I know many Americans are kind, generous and understanding people, its such a pity that your politics are so messed up. Especially foreign politics. To give some consolation to the more patriotic Americans around here, I will admit that I completely misjudged Obama. I can not think of a person less worthy of a nobel price than him.
     
  15. JJ_Maxx
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    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    Of course, everything that not in line with the liberal agenda is a non-issue. Benghazi was just a mistake and even though the President lied about it, who cares? The IRS holding up grassroots organizations for the opposing party during an election year, I don't know why anyone would care. Of course this is just all fantasies made up by the evil republicans. How's that kool-aid taste?

    Anyways, lets not digress this thread and make it get closed because some people still wanna jump on the Bush-hating bandwagon. Guess what? We have a new president who's been doing a lot of pretty crappy things himself the past 5 years.

    ...but I digress, to each their own allegiances and alliances.

    I personally would like to have Manning, Snowden and Assange share the same tiny cell for the rest of their lives.
     
  16. Mithrandir
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    Mithrandir Contributing Member

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    This is folly. The scandal was caused by unequal application of the law -- the Democrat party controls the government, and somehow, liberal groups of the same kind were ignored while conservative groups were harassed. That, to me, is not only highly suspicious, but also a symptom of larger governmental rot. I don't think the Republicans are much better (their Congressional tactics have been less than honorable in the past).

    As for it affecting the election, it might have. American elections hinge on relatively small battleground states and even counties (a bad sign for representational government). So extra money and manpower at critical moments and in critical places might have made a difference.
     
  17. JJ_Maxx
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    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    First of all, it's 'mankind.'

    Secondly, there is already a thread for discussing the legalities of the NSA program, but that has ZERO to do with Edward Snowden. That's not how the law works. We do not have an 'end justifies the means' system of law. Only in regards to protection of whistleblowers, which doesn't apply here because giving state secrets to China is just treason, plain and simple.
     
  18. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Indeed. And it has also been said that it is in most people's best interest not to take too close a look at the process of making sausage. You may greatly enjoy the end product in blissful ignorance of the details of the process.

    The preservation of high ideals unfortunately requires some people to get their hands quite dirty in the real world. And that outrages folks with their heads up -- in the clouds.
     
  19. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    So you think it was OK the Presidential candidate lied to the US public very specifically about the candidate's position on the war in order to win an election? I'm not talking about a lie that promises everyone a free pony, I'm talking about saying you are against a war all the time you are planning and conducting that war behind the scenes.

    How exactly does that work in your mind? No worries, the politicians know better than the public so lying to the public about something so important is OK? Ever been to the Vietnam War Memorial in DC? Got any friends or relatives on that wall? Are you safer because all those soldiers died? Are you less safe because we eventually pulled out of a senseless war? Have any SE Asian countries fallen like Commie dominoes because we pulled out?

    Pentagon Papers
    Is that OK with you, campaigning on the promise not to get into a war, all the time one is planning to get in that war? That's ~58,000 war dead from the US alone. Did you know any of those more than 58,000 men? Oh wait, I already asked that.

    How about the Gulf of Tonkin incident lie? Was that one OK too?
    Do you know why we didn't prevail in Vietnam? We entered the war at the request of French colonialists who were fighting against the Vietnamese who were fighting for independence. It wasn't a war against the communist Chinese. Ho Chi Min only turned to the Chinese after the US refused to help him against the French Colonialists.

    What do you think, does a democracy have a chance of success when the public is that misinformed?

    Isn't your disrespect for the government a contradiction to the idea lying to the American public is good thing and whistle blowers automatically bad? How are conscientious federal workers supposed to act when they believe they've witnessed governmental wrong doing?

    And what about that First Amendment? You know, the one about a free press. Is it any less important than the second? A fair amount of that spying has been directed at the reporters the information was leaked to. Is that OK with you too?
     
  20. Cydramech
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    Cydramech Member

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    Once upon a time more than two centuries ago there was a country supposedly founded on liberties and revolution... but it didn't last for long if wasn't just a complete fairytale parents want to tell their children instead of being real with themselves, and so this country's government despite its supposed foundation carried on the same practices it revolted against...

    By no means is America the worst, since at least we can still do something about it beginning with state secession & economical blackouts.

    I couldn't agree more. Alas, any money going to these wars - it's clear they'd be put to better use, even towards more socialist policies if I must say so myself. Of all the things the government takes away money for, war has always been and always will be the worst of these.
     
  21. JJ_Maxx
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    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    Ginger, I respect your opinion, but I'm not going to debate the Vietnam War with you. Feel free to start a new thread if you wish.

    Edward Snowden is not a whistleblower. The NSA was involved in a perfectly legal program that is still going on today, and has been going on since 2007. They are focused on foreign communications and the program has oversight. Then he flew to Hong Kong with four laptops full of Top Secret government information, and used it as a bargaining chip.
     
  22. Macaberz
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    Macaberz Pay it forward Contributor

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    If I may be so free to sidetrack a bit here, with all the world news events that happen in the USA I can't help but think how young the USA really is. I feel both relief and agony at the thought. Relief because I am confident the USA will grow wiser in its pollicies over time, agony because of the sheer refusal to look at other countries, to look at European history and learn from the mistakes made there instead of rewinding the learning curve to some three or four centuries back. I mean seriously, some of the thinking of USA politicians is really victorian, sometimes medieval (I am looking at you tea party).

    Now to get back to Edward Snowden, I find the hypocrisy almost unbearable. It is the people that call on the first amendment everytime they open their mouths, its the people that are pro limited government, its those people that are now calling Edward Snowden a traitor. I find it patently absurd and morally apprehensible to call for the head of what I'd call a true American. How comes it is the people that try to make liberty their sigil are now calling for this man's head? How comes that the supposed patriots of the USA are so hellbent on infringe on the privacy of a vast majority of the global population? If anyone, Dick Cheney is a traitor. A traitor of American values that so many pride themselves in but that I have seen less and less since september eleventh. I still remember how distraught I was, even as a child, at that event. Now I merely feel pity, pity for the citizitens of the USA, pity that their representatives are either indecisive or incompetent. I remember seeing the USA as part of the "allied west", the good guys supposedly. Now all I see is a obese child with a lolly pop jumping up and down, screaming at the other kids that they are overweight. Notice that I don't view the American people as such, it's just that your diplomats and politicians are sending out this message.
     
  23. JJ_Maxx
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    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    Federal law broadly protects whistle-blowers with one exception, employees who are privy to the nation's secrets.

    Under the law, intelligence employees have their own system to report activity they believe violates the law or is unethical. Employees are instructed to report wrongdoing to Congress or their agency's inspector general.

    There are good, honest ways to do things, and he sold secrets to China to hide from bringing to light a legal program.
     
  24. JJ_Maxx
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    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    The self-described non-American socialist telling America it should be more like Europe. It takes all kinds I suppose.

    You lost all credibility at Dick Cheney. lol
     
  25. Selbbin
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    Selbbin I hate you Contributor

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    That's also in the case of using torture. While the masses find it morally abhorrent, it can be (and in my view, is) necessary to gain a particular outcome. Most people don't and shouldn't know what is needed to be done in order to preserve their lifestyle. It's also like cheap clothing and the exploitation required to achieve it. Ignorance truly is bliss. That's why, when the population learns about some new 'scandal', they are not equipt to rationally deal with the necessity of 'abhorrent' behaviour and cry foul.
     

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