1. erebh
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    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

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    Egypt and the Arab Spring

    Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by erebh, Jul 3, 2013.

    We, the West, did a nice job putting democracy in Egypt. Only 2 years ago Mubarek was ousted by rebels infiltrated, and orchestrated by Western agencies. The govt were forced to step down and new democratic voting systems were put in place while the world applauded the so called Arab Spring; the power of the people. North African revolutions soon spread to the Middle East with similar events taking place in Yemen, Bahrain, Jordan, Syria and Libya. Or did we? Is the truth about to come out?

    It is now surfacing that Morsi (from his prison cell at the time) and his Muslim Brotherhood, financed by the US to the tune of 2 billion dollars per year were originally behind the fall of Mubarek. As we all know, while the West were 'watching' the region, armed gangs violently overtook prison guards, released Morsi and left the gates open for anyone else who wanted to walk free.

    Egyptions who watched and were buoyed by Tunisia overthrowing their govt and with the West's propaganda machine in full swing, along with the promises of a new, free, rich Egypt, locals were encouraged to vote for Morsi, an escaped prisoner, to walk straight into office and while he managed his people and rationed their food to three slices of bread per day, he continued economic policies direct from the IMF/White House book of housekeeping.

    While the West have so far backed up every 'rebellion' across the region, they are lost now, reneging on their own policies. Will they stand back and let the people, and army of Egypt, topple the man they put in place. International rules state clearly that if there is a military coup, the US must rescind that annual $2 billion dollars, which has been the only thing feeding the Egyptians.

    Have the Egyptians just woken up to how they were originally conned by the West into accepting Mubarek, the IMF puppet and realise they were better off before the 'Arab Spring'?

    Did Morsi wake up to the their puppet masters and decide enough was enough, that IMF/White House economic policies were crippling his country?

    Or is it a case, as is being put forward on BBC Newsnight now just now, that Arabs, not used to democracy, don't know what to do with it when they finally get it and they certainly don't deserve it.

    With the Syrian war now officially taking place on Lebanon's streets and the US backing Syrian rebels/Al Qu'ada does anyone really know what the hell is going to happen, or if anyone knows what is even going on?

    It looks to me, even with all the NSA spying, it did the US naff-all good - or it worked a treat and they are still orchestrating complete chaos with the sole intention of destabilising the whole of the Middle East. The old chestnut, divide and conquer has been working since time began, why change now?
     
  2. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Why would the US have funded and backed Morsi exactly? :confused:

    Have you decided the New World Order is secretly run by Islamists?
     
  3. JJ_Maxx
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    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    The US funds the Egyptian military more than the political powers in Egypt.

    And most Egyptians are mad at the US for its indifference to them, not because they link Morsi to Obama.

    Besides, the US doesn't even like the Muslim Brotherhood, but that's what the Egyptians democratically elected.

    This has nothing to do with the US and I'm glad that democracy was maintained by a bloodless coup and I hope the people get what they want. Seems like everything is working out quite well, actually.

    I don't understand why this coup discussion was nothing but US-bashing conspiracy theories?

    Just another excuse to rant about how evil the US is, I suppose.

    /shrug
     
  4. erebh
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    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

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  5. JJ_Maxx
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    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    Of course! How could I possibly think you were biased?

    Oh, right...
     
  6. erebh
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    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

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    Well they are the self-appointed police force of the planet - as that all you can argue with? C'mon JJ, you can do better than that.

    You say you're glad the people are getting what they want. Do you see who is the interim president and 100% favourite o get the full time position? Adly Mansour who has worked for both Mubarek and Morsi. The guy who kidnapped unmarried women during the last bout of protests and enforced virginity tests in the backs of police vans. This guy has already torn up the country's constitution that was voted on via referendum 18 months ago and he led the army to coup against his own govt. Is this democracy? Is this what you're happy about?
     
  7. erebh
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    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

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    And if you're going to quote me, at least quote me in full, not edit a question into a solid statement. shrugs
     
  8. erebh
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    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

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    And if you're going to quote me, at least quote me in full, not edit a question into a solid statement. shrugs
     
  9. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I fail to see how funds for Egypt meant we backed Morsi?
     
  10. erebh
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    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

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    Well that's up to you to figure out.

    If you think giving a guy 2 billion a year in cash and probably the same if not more in arms is not backing him then I don't know what is...
     
  11. JJ_Maxx
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    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    Your statement ended with a period. And when you said 'they' you were referring to the US.

    Basic punctuation.

    And as far as the US being the police of the world, someone has to do it and it has to be a country with a backbone, so we all know France is out of the question.
     
  12. erebh
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    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

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    Ok bad punctuation, scraping the barrel JJ?

    Absolutely France are out, jellyfish have more backbone than the French govt; they're already grovelling to Bolivia!
     
  13. erebh
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    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

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    [MENTION=53143]GingerCoffee[/MENTION]

    Diplomats were also stung by the adverse reaction to a speech given in June by the US ambassador to Egypt Anne Patterson, who appeared to defend Morsi – prompting renewed anti-US sentiment among opposition protesters. "The government of the United States supports Egypt, its people and its government," she said

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/egypt-obama-us-mohamed-morsi-crisis
     
  14. JJ_Maxx
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    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    My point wasn't the punctuation in the statement, but the fact that you actually believe it.

    And telling people to 'Google' things is not worth much, seeing how every crazy conspiracy has its own website.

    You're one step away from bringing crop circles into the discussion.
     
  15. erebh
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    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

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    I gave examples and offered you the chance to google it for yourself so you couldn't twist the link I offered. Why would you insist on twisting things.
    Jeez, I really thought you'd offer more than insults...
     
  16. jmhoffer
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    jmhoffer Contributing Member

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    Let's make this simple.

    I'll spell out what the Arab Spring means for the world.

    It means war, war and more war.

    The Arab nations in the Middle East were arbitrarily carved up after WWI by the English and French with no regard for cultural or tribal lines. In order to maintain this status quo, powerful dictators - often with the help of America, Britain and France - rose to power and suppressed the ethnic and tribal tensions that had existed for thousands of years (the only part of the world that is still divided on such lines). After 1948, these nations were able to use hatred of Israel to continue to suppress the tensions, lasting all the way until the Arab Spring which was started by the ripple effect of the fall of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein. Through this time, only Islamist groups like the Muslim Brotherhood held any serious level of power outside the government. In places where the government fell quickly, they were able to sweep into power. In places like Syria where the secular military realised the danger, civil war broke out.

    I predicted the outcome of the fall of Mubarak the day it occurred. I correctly predicted what is happening all over the Middle East and Muslim world.

    Here is what happens next. The West has few courses of action, but I can tell you the possible outcomes.

    1. Secular dictatorships are eliminated entirely and the Muslim Brotherhood sweeps the Muslim world. The West faces a united Islamist entity that could resort to open war with vastly superior numbers. Alternatively, that enemy could resort to more subtle means such as more organised, global terrorist networks and funding towards the radicalisation of Muslim populations in the Western world (something that already happens, but with not as much financial backing). Christians and other minorities will be driven out of the Middle East or will be murdered in a genocide.

    2. The secular dictators win and suppress the Islamists and tribal and ethnic tensions. Hundreds of thousands or more will be killed in the struggle. Middle Eastern borders remain unchanged but tensions continue to foment below the surface. We have another, nearly identical conflict within the next hundred years, likely less than fifty.

    3. The most likely outcome is a long, constant state of war for a long time to come. Geopolitically, the best outcome for the West is for these forces to slaughter each other. It prevents both of the above and keeps Islamist terrorists diverted away from the West. It also harms China and Russia, who use Middle Eastern countries as proxies against the West. Christian minorities will be forced out or destroyed.

    4. The least likely scenario is for these nations to become stable democracies. This will only happen if the borders of the Middle East are redrawn along cultural lines that includes massive population transfers that no one in the world has the stomach for anymore.
     
  17. erebh
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    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

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    Careful there, JJ will be giving you a tinfoil hat.

    That doesn't tell us what happens next - they are all likely to happen.

    In your newly drawn borders, is there room for Palestine or is that the population transfer you mention?
     
  18. jmhoffer
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    jmhoffer Contributing Member

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    Good news everyone! The Egyptian military has just overthrown Morsi and taken control of the country!
     
  19. erebh
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    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

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    Oh great - look who's in charge.

    Now the US, under their own rules can't buy te Suez canal for 2 billion a year. No US warships into the region and no oil to come out Great news indeen, by the way [MENTION=55095]jmhoffer[/MENTION], you didn't answer if there was room for Palestine in your newly drawn borders.

    I think in that other thread you started you may have been getting Mubarek (ousted in 2011) confused with Morsi. I'd say Israel is getting pretty nervous.
     
  20. erebh
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    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

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    David Cameron is hilarious "We don't support military contravention or how Mansour got into power but now we'd like to see a smooth transition".

    The new govt of Egypt are the Rebels. The ousted Muslim Brotherhood are the democratically elected govt.

    Seeing how the West have helped all Arab rebellions in the recent past, as well as funding Morsi in office, who will the West back?
     

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