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  1. 123456789
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    Elliot Rodger's pre-massacre video -I've never seen anything like this

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by 123456789, May 25, 2014.

    I'm not going to put up the link. It's on Youtube and easy to find.

    A 22 year old male in Santa Barbara county allegedly killed six people and injured several more before shooting himself in his car. He stabbed his two room mates to death before going on a shooting spree, with the supposed intent of destroying USCB sorority students. The astounding part is his "final" video on Youtube just before the killing, where he looks into the camera and very deliberately states his intent. It's hard living in Santa Barbara and being ignored by beautiful women. It's hard being 22 years old and still being a virgin. It's, and I quote, " it's not fair."

    This is coming from a male who is privileged enough to live in Santa Barbara County, whose father was assistant director on one of the Hunger Game's films. If you watch the video, be sure to hone in on his nice car, nice shirt, and designer shades, when he says "it's not fair."

    I have plenty of thoughts about this, but first and foremost I'm outright shocked.
     
  2. thirdwind
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    He was mentally ill, and I'm sure some of what he said was the direct result of that.
     
  3. Xueqin-II
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    Here we go again with the mentally ill diatribes. Privileged people taking high seats of judgement.

    Being a murderer does not mentally ill make, mind.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2014
  4. thirdwind
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    He had depression. At least, that's what some of the articles I read are saying.
     
  5. Hubardo
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    i've lived in santa barbara for 8 years and was pretty integrated into the community of isla vista for 7 of those years. naturally the only thing in my facebook newsfeed is about this. one of my housemates just left for the vigil, which is taking place right now.

    since this is making international headlines i urge people to do a couple things. one, stop making it about the murderer. two, bare in mind this was a hate crime against women - not simply an isolated act of a mentally ill person. three, consider stepping back and reflecting before offering all the reactive, judgmental views you have on the situation in the various ways you can obviously do that.

    of the hundreds of things that popped up in my newsfeed today i think this video someone posted is the only really relevant thing that should be said about it at this time, but it's probably too late for the media (and us, since we are the media too) to take it to heart.

     
  6. GingerCoffee
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    It's so sad. I feel the pain of all those parents from the parents of the kid who did the shooting to the all the parents who randomly, senselessly lost their children.

    I'm not sure how I feel about mentally ill people who blame everyone around them for their problems. It's a common theme among mass shooters. It's very hard to empathize on the one hand, and on my other hand (the nurse's), one has to wonder where to draw the line between what is and what isn't 'illness'.

    It is a mental illness, but more likely along the lines of serious personality disorder rather than something like schizophrenia. Normal people do not have these personalities. But what about all killers and other criminals? You can't just say they are all mentally defective, yet, they are.

    He blamed everyone else, he was a ticking time bomb. I'm waiting to see what help the parents asked for and what help they didn't get.

    And a spokesman for the family of one of the murdered boys had a serious emotional rant against the NRA efforts to block any and every restriction on gun access for persons with mental illness. I do hope we get somewhere with that soon. Even if it stops one person, it will be worth it.
     
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    CNN made a pitiful attempt not to give the killer too much publicity but it was as if CNN couldn't help themselves. So they played the killer's last words video with faux caveats that they were trying to limit giving him publicity.
     
  8. Xueqin-II
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    Therefore, all people with mental illness blame others for their problems and are ticking timebombs, is what you're saying. I've never seen such biased intolerance.
     
  9. GingerCoffee
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    No. Point to one thing I posted that suggested the majority of mentally ill people were dangerous.

    You really should ask people how they feel rather than assume they fit your stereotype. It's my understanding that while a few mentally ill people are dangerous, the vast majority including the majority of schizophrenics are not.
     
  10. A.M.P.
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    offensive statement removed by minstrel

    He does have a point where many of the sudden mass-murderers do seem to blame their actions on the world around them because it's flawed and negatively affecting them.
    In very few cases was this legit reasoning.
    Can't recall a case where the dead weren't just unfortunate people who had nothing to do with it.

    There is something wrong with them if they break down one day and decide the only solution is death but that doesn't mean everyone is predisposed or will end up doing so.
    And it's terrible how many of these events take per year and how much suffering and media coverage it gets (The rating sort of media, rather than informative).
     
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  11. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    I'm reading what looks to be his manifesto right now. The guy wasn't mentally ill. He was a LOSER, plain and simple.

    Till now, we've seen mass killings for religion, mass killings for politics, mass killings for bullying, mass killing for legitimate insanity. Now, we're seeing mass killings because some little sexual invalid couldn't handle rejection. What's next?
     
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  12. A.M.P.
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    Alpha couldn't handle getting beaten by betas.
    Thanks for letting me that manifesto exists, I have to read it out of curiosity.

    Edit: First paragraph already tells me I know the rest of it already.
     
  13. Hubardo
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    A quote from the syllabus of my abnormal psychology class:

    "Social deviance designations ("mad, bad, sick, stupid") are often used to describe and "explain" root causes of "abnormal" individual behavior. In doing so, these deviance designations both frame the problem and simultaneously prescribe remedies for individuals so defined as deviant (e.g., seclusion, incarceration, hospitalization, education)."
     
  14. GingerCoffee
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    Did you change your mind about addressing that to me?:confused:

    Like I said, "It's very hard to empathize on the one hand, and on my other hand (the nurse's), one has to wonder where to draw the line between what is and what isn't 'illness'."

    It is hard to empathize with a lot of mentally ill people. This guy is definitely one of those people. His videos are creepy, he looks creepy, his attitude is creepy. But what do we know about what is wrong with him besides the videos and his actions?

    The etiologies of significant personality disorders are not well understood. I've seen people with serious personality disorders who believe the FBI is after them. They look normal until they start telling you the crazy things they believe. It's clear there is something not quite right in their brains.

    Then we have people like Glenn Beck talking about insane conspiracy theories and not many people see that as mental illness.

    I don't have the answer, where does one draw the line? Which people are mentally ill and which are just horrid people? Clearly this guy was horrid. But people with severe personality disorders are also considered mentally ill, something is physically wrong within their brains.
     
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  15. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    @A.M.P.

    I'm up to his college days. So far no sign of insanity. No great childhood trauma. No secret uncle molester. Just a kid bragging about his perfect childhood, his private schooling, many houses, and trips to to Europe. His great tragedy happens in high school when some of the cool kids push him against a locker.

    You know, back in the day, geeks used to go in their garages and make metal or invent computers. Now they just sit and mope on WOW and plot revenge. We really ought to have a good look at how kids today are being raised.
     
  16. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    Well, to be honest I thought you might be interested in the manifesto but then I also realized you never said he was insane, and I didn't want to put words in your mouth. Sorry about that!
     
  17. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    From everything I've read from his manifesto so far, this kid was sane. The problem, as it appears to me, is more a sign of today's children(some of them) being mega spoiled. This kid's mom was friends with George Lucas. The dad was a Hollywood director. The kid goes to Europe and Asia multiple times and goes to a private school till high school. He writes about all this gleefully without it ever occurring to him that instead of feeling cheated maybe he should be feeling ashamed? He actually states that by all means he "should" have had a good life. This reeks to me like a sense of entitlement. He's upset because he was invisible in high school. His solution? Go behind computer games, and secretly blame others. That's exactly the sort of self pity and indulgence you'd expect from today's society.
    He leaves high school a virgin and unnoticed, but otherwise unscathed. I'm just starting his college days now, and will update once I finish. But his main problem right now seems to be the social hierarchy we've all experienced in high school. Somehow, though, only he's the victim (more narcissism and self indulgence points).
    What's interesting his that his viewpoint on people seems to remain the same even after high school. Everyone knows teens are awful, and that after high school things get better. So what happened to this guy? Obviously he failed to mature. I can't say for sure why not yet, but my guess is reality never hit this guy, because he was plain and simply too spoiled.
     
  18. GingerCoffee
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    I couldn't even get past 60 seconds of his YouTube rant, so I'm not too interested in his writing either. I get the picture. What I am interested in are any formal psychiatric diagnoses and what the parents tried before he started shooting.
     
  19. GingerCoffee
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    Sanity has two different definitions, legally sane and medically sane. Which are you referring to?

    To claim this is about kids being spoiled these days is really out there, @123456789. Are you serious? That's hard to take seriously.
     
  20. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    I only say this after reading what the perpetrator has to say for himself. Here's just a tidbit.


    "I continued searching for a job, but I still wasn’t able to find one. I refused all of the jobs that Tony
    suggested to me. The problem was that most of the jobs that were available to me at the time were jobs
    I considered to be beneath me. My mother wanted me to get a simple retail job, and the thought of
    myself doing that was mortifying. It would be completely against my character. I am an intellectual who
    is destined for greatness. I would never perform a low-class service job"

    I personally believe if you're sheltered enough, it's very possible to develop a dangerously warped view of things. I would not categorize that as being insane, but rather a sane person harboring insane beliefs.
     
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    This is what I'm referring to @123456789. You can't fix that claim by putting "some" in front of it. A sign of today's children? Are you aware similar comments have been declared by generation after generation? I doubt that today's children are any more spoiled than yesterday's children or tomorrow's children.
     
  22. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    OK. I don't want to make this a generation thing. Please disregard those comments. I've finished speed reading his manifesto. It's extremely disturbing and quite frankly I wished I didn't read it, but I have is and here is what I've learned. You're free to make your own conclusions.

    1. This person had every advantage in life. Private school. Wealthy parents. Trips to Morocco, Malaysia, England, France. Houses in Malibu. Invitations to exclusive premieres. 22 Karat gold necklaces as a graduation present.

    2. This person believed society owed him. He continually refers to himself as a superior gentlemen, and refers to others as lower class. He believes his own blood line is superior, and is racist.

    3. He wishes he was a millionaire, as he believes that is the only way for him to attract woman. He believes he is destined for greatness, will not work a menial job, and continually tries to win the lottery.

    4. His parents are divorced.

    5. His father gives him a self help book about making your own reality, and the killer continually refers to bringing his new reality by simply willing it.

    6. He takes refuge in computer games.

    7. Not once does he refer to anything even semi traumatic. No physical abuse from parents. Not even some horrifying popular kid humiliates nerd act you'd see in an 80's teen flick. There is absolutely no event of significance that could lead this kid to being depressed.

    8. His disappointment plain and simply lies in the fact that girls are not attracted to him. What does that mean in the context of his manifesto? The best conclusion I can come to is that he is upset that girls are not hitting on HIM. Never once does he mention any attempts on his part to go after a girl. Rather, he is jealous of the guys who do, and is mad at girls who ignore him. This suggests to me, what his constant reference to being of a "higher class" also suggests, that he expects girls to simply gravitate to him.

    My conclusion is that the kid lived a soft life, wasn't mentally tough like others, never toughened. He expects everything to fall in his lap, and becomes upset when it doesn't. This viewpoint is inherently sinister, with a sick idea of some sort of supremacy, that is absolutely racist. This viewpoint warps as he gets older. Note that I have omitted points about the end of his manifesto, as I have no desire to share them. Just know that by the end, his viewpoint is chillingly deranged, and quite honestly insane.

    I guess I find this important because it helps to answer the question of what is actual insanity. Is it insane for a child to be upset he has no friends? Is it insane to be upset that girls don't like you? What starts out as a spoiled, sheltered kid, soon morphs into something extremely disturbing. But this suggests to me an unhealthy upbringing that fosters insane thoughts, rather than some sort of inherent mental disease.
     
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  23. A.M.P.
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    Elliot was basically a spoiled child

    his mother spoiled him and he single you never had a conversation with her and his father was always working with and he never spoke with them either

    instead of growing up and reflecting internally Elliott seemed to just sesthed in anger and jealousy towards everyone else around him who was slowly finding their own place in the world and who they are and where they belong where he was just stuck because he couldn't ask questions to its parents apparently and never got answers to basic things most of ud figured out by trying to fit in
     
  24. jazzabel
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    As horrible as it is, I am not shocked. There's been enough similar men in the US committing similar crimes.

    I assessed a spree shooter in Australia once, when I worked as a forensic psychiatrist, who likewise first shot two neighbours (that his father deemed responsible for his business failures) and then went on to shoot loads of others. The thing that came across most strongly in the shooter I saw was how immature he was. We estimated his psychological age at about 9-11.

    In the current case, I bet the shooter was jealous of his roommates prowess with women or some such, so those murders were the cause of all this. Often the logic of these shooters is to either hide the real targets with the spree, or to follow the murders that were actually important to them, with a spree, in order to go down in a blaze of glory, become notorious, and avoid rotting in jail for the rest of their life.

    Also, over the years, I saw several children who shot classmates with their parent's gun. All of them didn't really understand the consequences of their actions, not in an adult manner. The rage and revenge were the only motives, and then, guns happened to be available. The deep sense of entitlement that such kids display is consistent with the narcissism of a child, and later with the teenage psychology it's the same - self-absorption, sense of entitlement, like the world or the parents owe us something, is actually quite normal. In adults, such behaviour would be indicative of antisocial personality, or psychopathy, and all these shooters were most likely heading in that direction anyway, but I wonder whether more hands-on upbringing and time spent with parents as well as an adequate outlet for frustration and energy (sport vs video games and internet porn for example) could have helped prevent this sense of entitlement and frustration from exploding in this way.

    I maintain that, if the guns are as freely available, to every psychopath or a child with a fake id, as it is in the US, you are bound to have these tragedies occurring, specifically perpetrated by very psychologically immature young people, men most commonly. I would've outlawed guns in the US after the Columbine massacre. The fact that nothing was done, and there've been dozens similar tragedies since and still nothing, despite the fact vast majority of the world lives with very tight gun control and doesn't have to deal with such tragedies nearly as frequently, well...

    This does not surprise me at all. My deepest condolences to the families of the victims. This was an avoidable tragedy :(
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2014
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  25. Madman
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    What a self-pitying loser. Life's tough, live with it. I'm sick of all the people whining like life owes them something, grow up. I don't believe he was mentally ill, just mentally infantile.
     
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