Ender's Game

Discussion in 'Entertainment' started by rhduke, May 11, 2013.

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  1. Gigi_GNR

    Gigi_GNR Guys, come on. WAFFLE-O. Contributor

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    Yes, how dare we want to contribute money to homophobes. How dare I not want to put my money in the pocket of a man who will most likely use it in a political group designed to deny me my rights. How dare I, not they, be so hateful.

    Huh.

    Things stop being about politics and opinions when the rights of people are concerned.

    Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
     
  2. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    This line that you seem to be drawing for others delineating a predefined (by you) maximum level of expression, are you drawing this with a red Sharpie or a black one? Just curious.
     
  3. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I like Moby Dick :)

    I thought Ender's Game was good when I read it. Don't know how it would hold up these many years later. In any event, there is nothing about Card's work itself that would prompt any reasonable person to hate it with a passion. I don't buy his stuff because I don't want to help fund his political activities, but I find no reason to hate him personally (don't know the guy) or his work (which seems to me to be generally well-written).

    One problem we seem to have is people grow increasingly insular in terms of their ideas. They don't associate with people who think differently, they avoid writing that advocates viewpoints other than their own, and so it becomes very easy to view those of differing views as caricatures rather than people. This is a mistake.

    I support gay marriage (marriage equality, if you prefer). I have friends who do not, because they feel it conflicts with their religious views. They're not bad people; in fact, quite the opposite. If they were bad people, they wouldn't be my friends anymore.

    Anyone can cite examples like Hitler or Dahmer, or some extreme case, but that doesn't illuminate the issue at all, it just muddies the waters. By and large, for most issues of social policy, you've got plenty of good, intelligent people on various sides of the issues (and plenty of bad, unintelligent people on the various sides, I suspect).
     
  4. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    Everyone posting in this thread has a political ax to grind. Mine is equality.
     
  5. Mithrandir

    Mithrandir New Member

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    I don't want to go more off topic, but...

    Personally, I see the gay marriage issue as a direct result of bad government. Government shouldn't be legally defining things like marriage at all; they should have a set contractual system for combining the assets of two or more people into one (by the way, it should be the same for corporations only on a financially limited scale). Christians define marriage as a sacred bond between a man and a woman, regardless of the existence of love. Others, including the Gay community, define marriage as a codification of love to be dissolved when love no longer exists. These are fundamentally opposing definitions, and the entire issue revolves around having two real world definitions with only one legal definition.

    Sigh. Unfortunately, both parties are using government as a club to smash the other. It is a weapon, a tool, for that unique brand of staunch partisan that battles endlessly over the pettiest of issues while ignoring the major ones (budget). The founding fathers didn't design the system with party politics in mind, and surprise, it isn't working well with partisanship.
     
  6. JJ_Maxx

    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    As Steerpike agreed with me, we were confused as to what could cause such a strong emotion over science fiction stories.

    I asked him a question, I didn't tell him he couldn't feel the way he does.
     
  7. IronPalm

    IronPalm Banned

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    I see you have changed your argument; now Scott Card is evil because he donates to a social cause you disagree with? Interesting logic. Taking it to its logical extreme, I would advise you to stop paying money for anything and everything.

    When I patronize a film, I am giving money, directly or indirectly, to its actors and directors. Most actors and directors support issues (to use one example, gun control) that I personally disagree with. By your logic, should I stop paying for movies entirely?

    Hell, when YOU pay for a meal at a restaurant, you are putting money in the pockets of everyone that works there. Some of the people that work there probably use that money to donate to groups that are also against gay marriage. THE HORROR!

    The same is true of any purchase we make; some very small percentage winds up in the hands of people working against our personal interests.

    So tell me then, do you never buy food?

    Careful you don't fall from your soap box; it's pretty high up. Most importantly, why does this even matter? Gay marriage is already legal in about a dozen states (and counting) and will probably be legalized all around the country in another 5 years. It's going to happen, and nothing will stop it.

    Why do you even care what a single writer thinks? Is it an opportunity to be outraged, holier-than-thou, and feel good about yourself? I support gay marriage too, but I don't think it makes me "better" than anyone who doesn't.

    Unfortunately, this refreshing bit of sanity will go over the heads of many people in this topic.

    Very well stated. I would have a lot more to write about this (I'm a Libertarian) fine post, but indeed, it is getting very off-topic.
     
  8. JJ_Maxx

    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    This was perfectly said and I agree 100%. Remove marriage from government and law and then let anyone do whatever they want. I personally don't care what anyone else does in their own bedroom or who you want to be your social security beneficiary. Heck, have your cat be your beneficiary.

    Like you said, removing marriage from government makes this debate disappear overnight.
     
  9. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    I wonder how tolerant you'd be if you were the person whose rights other people were fighting against you having. How tolerant was the Jew stepping on the train to Auschwitz? The black man being strung up in a tree? Extreme examples? The number one cause of death for gay teens in America is suicide and a very disproportionate number of homeless teens are gay (kicked out of their homes for being gay). In 2011, the most recent year I can find stats for, 30 muders were committed in the US because the target was LGBT. That's just murders, not assaults. That's not the kind of assembly line execution suffered under Hitler, but it's pretty extreme.
     
  10. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    The Side-Step Back-Peddle is a very pretty dance when done well.
     
  11. JJ_Maxx

    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    All I ask is for a basic level of reading comprehension. I never said he couldn't feel that way, I just asked him why he did. I shouldn't have to explain myself.
     
  12. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Perfect example of the kind of ridiculous rhetoric that derails reasonable conversation. Let people with more sense advocate your position and things will progress faster.
     
  13. IronPalm

    IronPalm Banned

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    I will be charitable and assume you're just really, really zealous on this issue and have thus lost all perspective and sanity, as opposed to simply being a troll.

    I will just give you a word of advice; I wouldn't make this comparison around actual blacks or Jews. My ex-girlfriend with the gay best friend who was against gay marriage was black, and would kick your ass for that statement. I would feel a similar temptation, being Jewish.

    Being against gay marriage is the same as mass-murdering gay teens and/or kicking them out of their homes. Got it.
     
  14. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    I used to argue for this. But, the Religious Reich would not have gone for it in the past because they enjoyed their uncontested monopoly to define marriage. Now, that monopoly is being challenged. So, we'll see. I like this for non-marriage reasons. For example, one of a couple dies and the survivor has a sibling who moves in and helps raise the kids.

    Most Christians accept divorce. So, you might say that the Religious Right believes in marriage as a sacred bond between a man and a woman which can be dissolved when love no longer exists. Many Christian churches sanctify gay marriage.


    That's not true. It is very possible for gay marriage to be made legal, but for the Religious Right not to have to perform gay marriage. That is a compromise which beats no one over the head with a club. I'm okay with that. No one on the other side has said that they are.
     
  15. Mithrandir

    Mithrandir New Member

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    In 2011, the total number of murders was 14,612. So .205% of murders were related to LGBT. Murder is never justified. Ever. But this isn't in the same ballpark as the holocaust.

    I'm unsure though, what rights, other than marriage, are being denied? (Not that I don't think that's an issue. I already addressed it.)

    Edit: [MENTION=54841]Justin Rocket[/MENTION].

    If you define something legally, you are saying it actually exists in reality. For a Christian, this is wrong. So making Gay marriage legal is denying the opposing view. (Christian is a very loose term nowadays. Just assume I mean the infamous "Religious Reich.")

    Now, that's not to say that making it illegal doesn't deny the LGBT view. Of course not. That's why government shouldn't define such things. Moreover, I meant the last paragraph as a more general statement, not directly related to Gay marriage.

    Also, I can't abide the use of the phrase "Religious Reich" in any reasonable discussion. All too often in American politics, people phrase things as a struggle between good and evil. Most of the time, it's semantically or financial (which is not to say there aren't major differences).
     
  16. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    This makes no sense and gets to the heart of the problem. Gays have been lynched in large numbers and sent to Auschwitz in large numbers. but if I compare them to blacks getting lynched or Jews getting gassed, I might get my ass kicked?

    That's what's wrong here.

    And, yes, treating a group of people as less than human to the extent that their teens are massively victimized by suicide, homelessness, and murder is extreme and wrong.
     
  17. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    I said it's not the assembly line level execution under Hitler.

    Do you know how many rights are attached to marriage? We're talking about everything from end of life issues to custody to immigration etc.

    Give unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's. Government and Church are separate. The fact that something exists in one does not make it exist in the other. Can you just imagine the horror of transubstantiation if it did?
     
  18. Mithrandir

    Mithrandir New Member

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    I did not say that if something exists in one, it exist in another. If something is written into law, it is de jure accepted as right and moral by all those in the social contract. That does not mean that a religious belief has to be a law, but a law has to be accepted as right and moral by the people to maintain the society.
     
  19. JJ_Maxx

    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    That's preposterous. I'm a Christian and I don't consider myself a Nazi. I'm not trying to force anyone to believe anything, I just want my views respected just like everyone else. I'm sorry if that makes me part of the 'religious reich'...

    If you wanna be gay, then be gay I have no interest in stopping you. I believe everyone has to answer for their own actions. It's not my job to be the morality police.

    My job, as a Christian is to love everyone, including my enemies and to focus my thoughts on things that are lovely, pure and true.

    I don't personally believe in activism against gay marriage. Again, everyone will have to stand before God and give their own account. My job is to be the best example of Christ that I can be.

    I believe homosexuality is a sin against God, just like adultery or divorce. So I will live my own life to those standards. You may do as you wish.

    I don't think my beliefs make me a bad person.
     
  20. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    And unfortunately (I am adding to your statement, not contradicting it), when this social contract was lain down and formalized, it was given the same name as a religious ceremony espoused by certain religions. What I wouldn't give to have been there on that day to whisper in the ear of the person penning those words, "Maybe we want to call the contract something different than the church thing, just so we don't confuse the two." But alas, that was not the way it went down.

    When those who want marriage equality say marriage, they do not mean the same thing as those who oppose marriage equality when they say marriage. Semantics.
     
  21. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    That's right. The persecution of gays has been exactly the same as the persecution of jews and blacks. At one point black slaves couldn't get married. Hitler sent gay people to the death camps. Stalin sent gay people to the Gulag camps. Gay people are today targeted by the same skinheads that are also racist and anti-semetic. By school bullies. By work bullies. How could it possibly NOT be compaired? Ignorance is rampant! And yeah, that's why persecution is still happening. People have been jailed, lynched, murdered, bullied, etc for being or even being accused of being gay and yet it's not comparible? WTF? Seriously! WTF!?
     
  22. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    You couldn't if you tried. It's not an action. It's a state of being. I could never touch a man again for the rest of my natural life. I would die as gay as I was when I was born.
     
  23. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    Not true. That's why our bill of rights does not say "you have the right to say whatever you want to as long as we all think what you say is right and moral". The rest of the Bill of Rights is similar. Our freedom depends on the legal right for people to do things/say things that we don't think is right and moral as long as those things done do not impede the legal right for other people to say things/do things we do not think is right/moral.
     
  24. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Marriage is far older than the church. The church made it a church thing. The church took an old, well established social bond and exploited it. Marriage pre-existed Christianity.... by a long shot!

    No, they don't.
     
  25. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    So, answer the question, are you content with gay marriage being legal, but your church having the right to not perform it? That position allows you to have your views respected and the views of people who disagree with you respected.
     
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