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  1. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    Enough is enough, ladies

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Jack Asher, Feb 7, 2015.

    As the good folks at Fox and Friends point out, there are just too many movies with strong female role models! There's Frozen, and, probably some other movies. I'm pretty sure there was one about...no that was something else.

    But all of these (one) children's movies are teaching young boys that the only role they will have is being a bumbling suitor. And also a dragon tamer. Or a robot engineer. Or a messianic savior. Or a staunch hero of Boxtrolls. Or every other movie that has come out in the last year, with the sole exception of Frozen.

    Enough is enough!


    [Chauvinist Bonus Round: It was really nice that the woman who spoke to Fox News was able to take time out of her busy schedule of having kids most of the time.]
     
  2. Chinspinner
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  3. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I saw that Fox segment on Chris Hayes (MSNBC). I thought I saw it first on The Daily Show but now I can't find it. False memories I guess.

    I can't believe the ignorance of it. They had to know, it had to be purposeful, appealing to the base or something. Surely they couldn't be that stupid at Fox.
     
  4. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    I've been waiting for the Daily Show to cover it all week. I guess they had to do stuff on Bibi's election commercials instead.
     
  5. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    This has been going on for at least a decade. Think of Raymond from Everybody Loves Raymond, the classic American dad **** up. There's lots of commercials like this too( although lately I've been seeing the wives made fun of too so maybe things are changing). Girls needed to be empowered, absolutely , but don't kid yourselves that it absolutely hasn't had the reverse effect on some males.

    Fact. 2/3 of students in private schools are women.

    Fact. More young men are jobless than young women.

    I see it all the time now. Girls driving their boyfriends around when it used to be the other way.

    Don't get me wrong. The clip you posted is going to sound idiotic, with their hick accents and their inability to mention anything other than Frozen. But having been a boy in school once, I can say from personal experience boys were taught they were the bad guys. And honestly it even happens on this forum.

    If you listen to the news, it's always "brave firefighters," " brave soldiers," but when it's something bad it's always "the armed man," . If you want the link I will find it for you , but this guy dissects many news stories where they won't specifiy gender when it's for heroes, even when the heroes were all men, but always specify when the perpetrator is male.

    We still need a women president. No, life is not 100% fair for anyone, but let's not kid ourselves that the media can't ever be against men.
     
  6. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    Also, Jack, it concerns me that you specified "ladies," in your title, like this is supposed to be an inside joke between you and them. This sort of "making teams" is exactly the sort of thing we don't need.
     
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  7. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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  8. ChickenFreak
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    This one confuses me no end. Are you worried that women are....driving? They've been doing that for quite some time. Or are you worried that sometimes when there's a man and a woman in the car, it's not the man that's driving? Why is this a worrying fact? Are you assuming that it means that the man can't afford a car? Are you saying that this is such an overwhelming trend that it's rare to see a man driving a car? What are you saying here?
     
  9. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    It's just anecdotal evidence that more young men are unemployed than young women, (especially during the recession.) But we have statistics to prove that.

    http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2013/ted_20130806.htm

    FYI I prefer the table.
     
  10. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    I'm wondering if you presented the wrong chart, because there doesn't seem to be any separation of "young" men and women--it's men and women 20 and over. Also, the most recent end of the graph seems to just about converge between men and women, which wouldn't explain a shocking new trend of women in the driver's seat. (Also, the most recent end of the graph is two years ago. Maybe there's a more recent graph with wider differences that you meant to link to?)
     
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  11. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    You're right. Sorry.
    http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea10.htm

    What's interesting is that it's only the younger people where the inequality (in favor of women) is present.
     
  12. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Gender politics largely bores me silly. Men and women are humans. We are all equal the other side of the grave, so we may as well be equal this side of it too. I have little patience for men who aim to demonize women, just as I have little patience for women who demonize men. A tosser is a tosser, regardless of what is between the legs.
     
  13. Wreybies
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    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    Agreed. After having worried over this topic a few months ago I decided the following: The topic, at its metalevel, is too large and multifaceted and there is nothing but disagreement, internally and externally, from all sides, concerning what the topic even encompasses, what the acceptable nomenclature will be, who is the "holotype" representative of (either side of) the cause, etc. As a man, I don't feel in the need of salve for a bruised manhood. My manhood is just fine because its defined by me, not by the words of others. I treat women as humans. That is what I can do, so that is what I do do. Most of the people with whom I work in my profession are women, and they are as ready and adept at what they do as any man. Gender does not define their capacity so it doesn't define my view of same. Also, frankly, I'm gay and latino in the U.S.A. I've got my own shit to deal with.
     
  14. BayView
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    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    I don't think it makes sense to look at an individual movie, or even a few movies.

    Well, when there aren't many representations of a certain kind of person in media, we have to worry about every depiction of that kind of person. If there are hardly any black characters and you create a black character who's a stereotype, that's more of a problem than when you create a white character who's a stereotype, because there are lots of other white characters out there to contradict the stereotype.

    So, when looking at the ways people from different groups are depicted, we should look at the aggregate, I'd say. Based on IMDB's Top 10 US Box Office for 2014 (http://www.imdb.com/search/title?at=0&sort=boxoffice_gross_us&title_type=feature&year=2014,2014) , we've got...

    Hunger Games (Mockingjay)
    Guardians of the Galaxy
    The Winter Soldier
    Lego Movie
    American Sniper
    The Hobbit
    Transformers
    Maleficient
    X-Men
    Big Hero Six

    Does anyone think, looking at that list, that we have a problem with men being presented only as sinister bumblers?
     
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  15. Chinspinner
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    No, but there is clearly a problem with them being represented as superhuman, or as small plastic figurines, or as having hairy feet. I am a man and I am not any of these things!
     
  16. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    No. No one thinks that except Fox's dying veiwership, and aparently @123456789. The stupidity of the position is really really easy to point out. Because once you take Frozen out of the equation there is literally no other movie from the last 3 years that the claims could be made upon.
     
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  17. Jack Asher
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  18. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    OMG! Are you seriously trying to argue white female privilege @123456789?

    How do Media Images of Men Affect Our Lives?
    You may notice the bumbling male when you see him, but by a wide margin men are portrayed as the heroes more often than women ever are.

    Of course if you mostly watch TV sitcoms I can see where your selective bias comes from.
    Are Men The Latest Victims Of Media Misrepresentation?
    I would suggest they always have been victims as have women, blacks, nurses, poor people, rich people, and just about any group the media can't seem to help not stereotype.

    Why We Need To Stop Bemoaning The 'End of Men'
    And don't forget:


    Not that I believe this statistic without a source and some context but, what is this supposed to show? Wealthy families have more girl children? They send the boys to public schools and the girls to private schools? :confused:

    "Young"? Could that be because young men are in college while young women are working at McD's? Again, without context and given women on the whole earn less for the same jobs and the majority male legislature can't manage to pass an equal pay law, this fun fact means very little.

    And this evidence of greater equality is bad, why?

    By all means, let's see this link. I've heard black ethnicity is often noted when white is not. If you are saying men are criminals more often than women, consider, 1) the news media reports more crime than heroic incidents, and, 2) more men are in jail for crime than women.

    Who argued that? We just said Steve Doocy's portrayal of the media's portrayal of men was laughable.
     
  19. 123456789
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    @GingerCoffee

    More young men are unemployed because more young women have better education. I meant "private school" as in "private college." It's a well known stat look it up. In your day things were different. Times have changed.

    PS. I am shocked you're contesting the college thing with me which is so obvious. I will not discuss anything else with you on this thread until this topic is resolved
     
  20. BayView
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    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    Wow, that's like a get
    Wow, that's like a get out of jail free card!

    I ALSO would like to see a source for your stat about girls vs. boys in private school! Now will you refuse to discuss anything else with me, too?!?
     
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  21. Okon
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    Very interesting article. My favourite part is the reason:
    :rofl:

    I think the generic film protagonist will change, given more time. There are probably a greater number of movies featuring a female lead than forty years ago, at least.

    Regardless, though, why is it expected that each gender be inspired only by characters of the same sex? The first and second Alien movies made me look up to Ripley at a young age; she was a realistically reluctant hero who slapped antagonism and hopelessness in the face. So I shouldn't aspire to have those traits if I'm a man, because a girl had them?
     
  22. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    I'm going to give you your stat. What are you going to say when you get it?
     
  23. Wreybies
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    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    We are of like mind on this. :)

    [​IMG]
     
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  24. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    @GingerCoffee @BayView


    http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2012/02/16/the-male-female-ratio-in-college/

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/education/09college.html?pagewanted=all

    If you don't want to read the whole thing, ctrl find "60-40"

    Here's another one (see below) that takes a look at things from a more sociological aspect, in terms of what's going on at young ages in school. It's basically the same complaint voiced (in an unintelligent way) in the OP's link, that boys in some ways may be lead to feel inferior.

    You can scoff at this all you want, but how do you know? I was a boy in school, once, and I can attest to this. These sociologists obviously also agree.

    https://coe.lehigh.edu/content/reverse-gender-gap

    Now, I've given you the stats. More young men than young women are unemployed. Ginger Coffee for some reason just assumed that that meant its because more young men get to go to college. I'm really alarmed by her lack of reasoning. Did she even read the statistics I posted? One of the unemployment gaps was for adults aged between 20-24. Many men and women are out of college by 21-22. Regardless, I am now showing you all that this is a silly justification, because, as it turns out, the reverse is true. More women are enrolled in private higher education than men. It's more or less a known fact females have surpassed men academically.

    Now, I can show you all this stuff. But as usual, I'm just going to be ignored or laughed at. That's fine. This is more for the young impressionable men on this forum, then for the old feminists who haven't been to college (or had to start a career) in twenty to thirty years, and whose only touch with modern day reality is from Disney films.
     
  25. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    You post unsupported claims and get annoyed when I challenge you? You made the claim, you need to look it up, not me.

    Don't get mad at me because I don't look at the evidence the same way you do.

    However, I actually tried and gave up after looking at several sites. Of course now that you say private universities rather than private schools, at least I have a direction to go in.
    The Male-Female Ratio in College
    Here's an interesting variable you overlooked:
    So yes, more females than males are now in college. Using the 2/3 figure was true but cherry picked and the actual difference in the ratio is much smaller.

    There are other variables you picked around:
    And some additional variables you've not considered in this white female privilege hypothesis of yours:
    Why Do Women Outnumber Men in College?

    Besides rising expectations, birth control and delayed marriage explaining the shift, another explanation for women exceeding men in college enrollment is that men are slacking off, not that women are being offered any advantages:
    'The Rise of Women'
    Yes, more women are in college now than men. But as for women having a better education, that depends on just which part of the elephant you have a hold of.
    You can't just look at total numbers. Until the number of women in STEM fields equalizes, all you have are more women in school earning lower paid degrees.
    And you've jumped to another unsupported conclusion: "More young men are unemployed because more young women have better education." That's a major logic fail there since association does not prove causation.

     
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