Concern over depiction

Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by King Arthur, Mar 22, 2016.

  1. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    That's how the Knights Templar started. The Crusades weren't body guards, more re-enforcements for the Byzantines, with the added motivation of clearing the way for pilgrimage. But as for physical, bodyguard protection, that was the Knights Templar.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2016
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  2. King Arthur

    King Arthur Banned

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    I got carried away here, sorry if I offended anyone.

    I don't think my intentions got through. I don't want to, nor am I foolish enough to think I can, FORCE readers to think a certain way. My dilemma was: should I include rape given if I include it, everyone would deem it as ok in the novel, or leave it out sacrificing historical authenticity?
    I was also curious of any compromises anyone might know of. This turned into a lot of people saying "I'll put your book down if any of the characters are rapists.
    That's fine with me. But it doesn't bring much to the table, my initial dilemma was based on the scenario that the reader would read it, not object to it before even getting through it all.
    There seem to be ways to do this. Ned Stark is a well loved character and yet he cheated on his wife and hang around with whores. No one seems to think that makes him less of a good character, it even wrenches him out of the proud knight archetype into a complex 3D character.
    Clockwork orange tries to make you pity a serial rapist, it's considered a masterpiece of literature and a magnificent work of art.
     
  3. King Arthur

    King Arthur Banned

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    I thought the crusades ended with the fifth one where they decided they'd had enough and besieged Constantinople again. By that point it was all about profit. Turns out that was the fourth though.
    Thanks for the info though, I'll be sure to look into the next four.
     
  4. Shattered Shields

    Shattered Shields Gratsa!

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    One should also keep in mind that there were laws as far back as Rome that actively tried to prevent rape. How effective they were, I honestly don't know, but they were there. I've read that, in Rome, the punishment for convicted rapists was to have their testicles crushed between two rocks. I'm fond of calling it the nutcracker.

    Come to think of it though, the laws would most likely never apply to the inferior conquered peoples, hence the condoned savagery.

    That's not quite what Stark did. By all accounts he slept with only one prostitute (Wyllas) and brought the result of their canoodling (Jon Snow) back to Winterfell with him, rather than leaving the child with his mother as every other lord would be wont to do. It's written as a mistake of passion, something many can understand. Besides, it's only one incident, and Eddard is shown to be much more noble because he performs more likable actions than he does vile. If character morality was a scale, Eddard Stark would be firmly tipped in the 'good guy' range.

    That's such an absurd description of A Clockwork Orange. I never read it, but I do know that by the end of the book, the man who did the rapes gets an incredible amount of author-granted karma. It's not really fishing for pity, it's more like a flawed character being beaten to his knees, and then some.
     
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  5. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    It's heavily implied that Ned isn't even Jon's father. Rather, Rhaegar Targaryen may be, with Lyanna Stark as his mother. In this theory, Ned would have claimed Jon as his own to prevent him being killed in the Baratheon purge of the Targaryens.
     
  6. Shattered Shields

    Shattered Shields Gratsa!

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    Oh I knew I should've included that in my comment.

    I would love it to be true, Jon going from bastard to Targaryen heir to the throne would be an incredible twist, but I don't know if it's been confirmed or not. (Has it?).
     
  7. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Not confirmed, but there's so much evidence mounting up I think it will be shortly.
     
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  8. Romana

    Romana Member

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    I don't think you need to mention rape in order to "stay true to historical authenticity." If you're writing fiction, historical authenticity doesn't matter that much. Any character who rapes another loses all of my feelings of empathy, respect, and connection.
    I am trying extremely hard to stay civil, but may I say that there is an IMMENSE difference between adultery and rape. In adultery, a person betrays another's trust. In rape, a person betrays another's humanity, their sense of self, their very being. There is an immense difference between taking women as prizes won in battle and whoring around.
    Would introducing rape add historical accuracy and make your characters complex? Yes.

    But you should be asking if adding rape actually adds anything to the story besides historical accuracy.
    If I'm reading a book and a character who I am supposed to like rapes another, I will throw that book away. I don't give a shit how good it is; I don't give a shit how "historically accurate" it makes the book, and from what I know of the world and what I've seen in this thread, neither will any other woman. Do you really want to throw away 50% of your readership?
    This is the year of our lord 2016, not 1134. No matter how ~~society's~~ views on women and rape have changed, women were just as human in 1134 as they are today, and today's audience will view rape as awful, inhuman, and monstrous no matter if it happens during the crusades or tomorrow night.
    Anybody or anything outside extraordinarily obvious satire that tries to paint a rapist as a protagonist is a rape apologist and only adds to the oppression of rape victims.

    as an author and human being, it should be your first priority to be respectful of real living people. That should always come before writing "historically accurate" works of fiction.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2016
  9. Archnenna

    Archnenna Active Member

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    Are you serious? That's like saying "anyone who tries to paint a murderer as a protagonist is a murder apologist and only adds to the oppression of murder victims' families". And apparently I'm a huge murder apologist because I love to write murderers. Why don't we just let people write whatever they want? It's fiction. It's not real. And it really bothers me when people want to censor creativity just because they dislike certain themes.

    You are not being disrespectful to real living people just because you write a book about something. Unless you directly insult a real person, you are not hurting them. If someone is bothered by a work of fiction, it's their own problem.

    I say: go for it. Write what you want. I may not like such a protagonist, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to censor an author just because I don't like a certain subject.
     
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  10. NiallRoach

    NiallRoach Contributor Contributor

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    The OP outright said that he doesn't care if you'd read it; the people he's interested in hearing voice their opinions are the ones who would.

    You're achieving nothing but derailing the thread with this.
     
  11. Romana

    Romana Member

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    I restate the most relevant thing I said:
    You should be asking if adding rape actually adds anything to the story besides historical accuracy.
    Is it going to make the story any more interesting if you include it? Is it going to make the theme more poignant or the characters' story arcs more complete?
    even if no one ever reads it, a writer should always be asking those questions regarding any event.
     
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  12. Lyrical

    Lyrical Frumious Bandersnatch

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    I think it's one thing to acknowledge rape as part of the culture. I think it's another to have your MC engage in it. Ned Stark never raped anyone. In fact, in the novels (I haven't watched more than a couple epiosdes of the show, so it may be different there and I wouldn't know) Robert tries to goad Ned into finding some whores with him and Ned refuses. He regrets even the one time he slept with someone else. Ned is an extremely moral character living in an extremely violent time. Obviously that doesn't go well for him, but he lingers on in reader's memory in a very positive way because of his moral highground. He's different from everyone else, and we love him for that difference.

    Alternatively, Tyrion whores around a lot, but he never rapes anyone. Tyrion is far less moral than Ned, but we like him and we accept his whoring because he is sincere and seems to be motivated by the right things. He even murders, but we're okay with that because it was well-deserved. Tyrion isn't completely okay with it though, and his conscious is bothered by it periodically throughout the next novel. Tyrion is a good person. But Tyrion didn't rape anyone.

    Joffery tried to rape Sansa, and we hated him. Ramsay raped Jane (Sansa in the show?) and we hate him. I'm trying to think of a character who raped someone who we're supposed to like. I can't think of one. Possibly Khal Drogo, because Dany's consent the first few times seemed only reluctantly given. Not sure, have to think about that one.

    Rape can be part of your culture, but if you want reader sympathy I suggest that your MC stay away from it himself. He doesn't necessarily have to have some internal dialogue about how bad rape is, he could just simply find other things to do besides rape. If you want him to last in your reader's hearts and minds, don't alienate them by asking them to be okay with him raping another. Because rape is never justified, no matter how commonplace it is. There is never a reason to rape. The reader wont be able to excuse his actions just because it's normal to that society. If he does rape, it would be to the benefit of your character's rapport with your readers to have him deeply regret this act and actively avoid doing it again.

    I think the reader needs to be assured that you, the author, are not apathetic towards rape. If you act blasé about it, readers may feel that you expect them to accept your premise that rape is fine if it's part of a culture - and as this thread as proven, most people will refuse.
     
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  13. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    No one has censored anyone. Don't make the mistake of confusing an opposing opinion with censorship. You're being hysterical. The OP voiced a cogent concern and people have spoken to that concern. YOU are the one trying to censor by telling people to shut up. Have a care.
     
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  14. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    I've stayed away from this thread because it offends me. The fact that it was even indulged to the degree it has offends me. It makes me feel this forum is rape obsessed. I am so sick of coming to this forum and seeing "Everyone is a rapist" appear on the Recent Post listing. It does not make me feel nice about coming here. I get very angry when I see it. But as you said, @Wreybies, it's not anyone's place to tell anyone to shut up. And my opinion doesn't matter.

    I think at some point, you said yourself @Wreybies that you wonder why this thread is still running, looping over and over again. I continue to wonder the same. This feels like something that should be moved over to the DR, because I have noticed newbies seem to be attracted to it, and then it keeps being fueled as a result. Thankfully, I am not someone triggered by this type of event, but if I feel horrible every time I see it, I wonder what people who have been raped feels.

    But I will say that I don't think @Archnenna is being hysterical, she is simply being forceful in her opinion. Maybe it's because I strongly agree that people should write what they want, be it for historical accuracy or sadistic pleasure. No one needs to read stuff they don't want to.

    Anyway, I wish this thread would go away, or at least be not in my face with it's provocative title.

    Edit: I am also well aware, I am probably coming across as 'hysterical' above. So be it. I've just been ignoring this for a while now. I've had enough of reading that crappy title.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2016
  15. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I wouldn't say you're coming across as hysterical, but certainly your message seems a bit mixed.

    You strongly believe everyone should have the freedom to write whatever they want - but you think they should stop writing in this thread.

    You're concerned about the title of the thread triggering rape victims - but not too concerned about an actual depiction of rape in fiction triggering them.

    You acknowledge that no one needs to read stuff they don't want to - but you've been unable to avoid reading the title of this post, even though reading it makes you feel very angry.

    So, to clarify my perception of this thread - no one is calling for censorship (a government or other authority preventing someone from writing/publishing something). No one is even calling for writing with rape by favourable characters to be segregated or specially marked (or moved to the DR). All anyone is saying is that they would likely be upset, offended, not feel nice, or feel very angry when they see it.

    So some people in this thread are saying they would feel the same about the portrayal of rape in a novel as you apparently feel about the discussion in this thread. Why is it a problem for them to express their opinions, but not a problem for you to express yours?
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2016
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  16. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    'Censorship' has been bandied about a lot on the forum recently. People seem to confuse "I don't like this thing" with "Nobody should be allowed to write about this thing."

    So when people moan about being censored, what they really seem to mean is, "I want to do whatever I like and not be challenged or called out on it." Challenging someone is not censoring them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2016
  17. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    @BayView - I agree with you, I am sending mixed messages. I am under a bit of work stress at the moment, so I can't even clarify to you what I feel.

    I have been frustrated with this thread for a while. To me, it seems like it's beating a dead horse. It's a disturbing subject matter that has been going on for so long. It is an important topic but it has been well and truly covered in my opinion. I can't see the value of it anymore. But that is my opinion. If people need to keep discussing, then that's their choice. I personally don't get it, it almost seems manic to me.

    But what absolutely bothers me the most, is that title. There's no reason to it other than I am sensitive. The wording "Everyone is a rapists" feels very inflammatory to me and just plain attention seeky over an ugly matter. I wonder if I have to keep coming here and still see "Everyone is rapist" for the next year. That is what I meant about the feeling that it makes us seem rape obsessed.

    There have been times I just don't want to be here after seeing that. It makes me angry. It's not even the content, it's the way that title is worded that I find most insensitive.

    I've just had enough of it and I've lost my temper. I should just stay way.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2016
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  18. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    And I also didn't think @Archnenna was being hysterical. - I didn't get that.
     
  19. Archnenna

    Archnenna Active Member

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    The moment you try telling people what they should do regarding fiction, yes, it is an attempt at censorship.

    If pointing it out and speaking against it makes me hysterical, so be it.

    I would also like a quote of me telling anyone to shut up. If you're going to accuse me of something, I'd like to see proof.
     
  20. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    So what shall we do then - since this is a location for people to share their opinions on writing - just close the forum and slap up a simple one-page destination that says DO WHAT YOU WANT in a big bold font? Is that what we should do?
     
  21. Archnenna

    Archnenna Active Member

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    Sharing opinions and discussing them is one thing. Example: "I don't like this. Maybe if you did it like this..."

    Telling people what they should do is something else. Example: "I don't like this. It's wrong and offensive to real people, and you shouldn't do it. If you do it, you're *insert insult here*"

    I thought this forum was open for discussions. Turns out it's just like Tumblr, with lots of people insulting you if you disagree with them about something they dislike. A shame, really.
     
  22. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    "Do whatever you like! Who cares if it upsets people! Censorship blah blah!" does not a discussion make.
     
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  23. Shattered Shields

    Shattered Shields Gratsa!

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    Guys, guys, please. Let's just take it easy. (And I'm the pot calling the kettle black, I know).

    Really, this thread should get a lock. It's been kind've a mess from the get go, and it's really derailed now.
     
  24. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Censorship, or an attempt at it, requires some power, threat of force, or coercion. There is no way an expression of viewpoint on a writing forum can be censorship, even if a person comes right out and says "You absolutely cannot do this," because there is no power held by that person over the author he is speaking to. The context of a writing forum makes it clear that all such comments are simply opinions, no matter how stridently stated or how prohibitive they might seem.
     
  25. King Arthur

    King Arthur Banned

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    Yeah, please lock the thread if possible. This could've been solved with a "Some people would be upset and throw away the book, most would want a detailed explanation as to why the rape happened rather than a throw-away line of 'Osric went for his daily jog and rape. Once he was done, he went for a swim.' After the explanation they would decide or not what they think of Osric."

    One post, maybe a few other opinions, not eight pages of "rape offends me" "well, it's like cholesterol, there's good rape and bad rape" "rape offends me".

    Ironically I often try to raise awareness on how prevalent rape is where I live and how it can be stopped. Not sure why people think I'm rape-obsessed.
     

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