1. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,620
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada

    That had or who had?

    Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by peachalulu, Nov 21, 2013.

    Ran into a snag. Here's a portion of the sentence. I had to alter it a bit - substituting men for creatures.

    The men, that had ripped down the fence, went over and ...


    Couldn't it also be - the men, who had ripped down the fence, went over...
     
  2. erebh

    erebh Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,642
    Likes Received:
    481
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    what's wrong with, The men that ripped down the fence...? Problem solved in my book...
     
  3. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,620
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    Well - hmm. Damn. It is that simple isn't it?
    I'm probably just trying to find a reason to procrastinate from Nanowrite.
     
  4. erebh

    erebh Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,642
    Likes Received:
    481
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    wood...trees... :D
     
  5. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    7,851
    Likes Received:
    3,339
    Location:
    Boston
    Grammar Girl has a page on this exact issue.
     
    peachalulu likes this.
  6. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,620
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    Thanks!
     
  7. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,385
    Likes Received:
    7,080
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    I think @erebh is right, and @thirdwind's link answers your question.

    But you also have two commas I wouldn't use.

    The men, that had ripped down the fence, went over and ...

    I do believe "that" takes the place of the first comma which then makes the second one also unneeded.
     
    peachalulu likes this.
  8. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,620
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    I need a comma boot camp. Right now I just sort of fling them around. Sprinkles on a cupcake. I'm probably missing commas
    in the previous sentence - instinct tells me - Right now, I just, sort of fling ...but I'm probably wrong.
     
  9. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,385
    Likes Received:
    7,080
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    :D
     
  10. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    36,161
    Likes Received:
    2,827
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    Because it really should be "The men who had ripped down the fence..." 'Who' is the proper pronoun to refer to a person or persons in such situations.
     
    Catrin Lewis likes this.
  11. Robert_S

    Robert_S Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Messages:
    876
    Likes Received:
    170
    If I may, Grammar Girl might have something on it, from what I read in my book you're subordinating a phrase that doesn't need to be subordinate. It should be on the same grammatical level as the rest of the sentence.
     
  12. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Messages:
    3,406
    Likes Received:
    2,931
    Since all of the more useful, relevant, and reasonable information has already been covered, I'd like to go in completely the opposite direction:

    One thing I'm currently doing is writing a character doesn't talk with relative pronouns at all if I can avoid it.
     
    GingerCoffee likes this.
  13. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    36,161
    Likes Received:
    2,827
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    I have to be honest. It sounds like a cheap stunt. Different for the sake of different very rarely impresses anyone but the writer who comes up with it.

    Write clearly. Write well. Tell a good story with well-crafted characters. Eschew gimmicks and shiny baubles.
     
  14. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,385
    Likes Received:
    7,080
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    Apparently I misread @erebh. I really need to slow down, too much coffee and too much to do.

    I thought he suggested, "The men ripped down the fence, went over and..."

    I agree, it's a person so one uses 'who' and one uses 'that' for a thing.
     
  15. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Messages:
    3,406
    Likes Received:
    2,931
    I realize that syntax is not the MOST important part of developing a character and his/her voice, that the character's perceptions, decisions, and reactions are the MOST important parts, but I have found a lot of people who say that unobtrusive syntax quirks can still be A part of the mix.

    Would you like me to PM you a more in-depth look at the full character I'm talking about?
     
  16. lex

    lex Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    525
    Likes Received:
    32
    This sounds interesting.

    It's a technique which has been used very successfully by John Le Carré (among others), in at least two of his bestselling books - one of which I'm just re-reading at the moment.
     
    GingerCoffee likes this.
  17. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    19,150
    Likes Received:
    1,034
    Location:
    Coquille, Oregon
    exactly!... 'that' = a thing and 'who' = a person...
     
  18. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,541
    Likes Received:
    4,776
    Definitely "who". Why would you use "that"? It's a man, it's a "who". So yeah, simple, but surprised that the first few responses all seemed to agree upon the wrong option!
     
  19. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    6,764
    Likes Received:
    5,393
    Location:
    Funland
    I checked the Grammar Girl link. Interesting. So basically you could use "that" there. To people who are used to the clear-cut people=who, things=that it would look odd, though.

    My high school English teacher did say you're not gonna get lynched for using "that" 'cause native speakers use it quite a lot, but at the same time she did draw a red wriggle under it if used in a sentence like "men, that..."

    I'd say, in dialogue 'that' would be fine, then, but in narration (unless 1st person or heavily "personified" 3rd), better go for the rule of thumb: things and animals and possibly corpses/zombies are thats and humans are whos.
     
  20. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,604
    Likes Received:
    151
    Location:
    the shadow of the velvet fortress
    If you put a comma there, you make the relative clause non-defining. You can't use "that" in a non-defining relative clause, so it has to be:
    The men, who had ripped down the fence, ............... (note the closing comma)
    However, I'd say this should really be a defining relative clause, which makes the correct sentence:
    The men who/that ripped down the fence............... (note that there are no commas)
    You can use either who OR that in a defining relative clause.
    I had not realised some people perceive this as a "grey issue". The guidelines I give above about defining/non defining relative clauses are absolutely standard in every intermediate grammar book I've ever consulted, or more importantly, taught from! Make life easy for yourselves and follow them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
  21. robertpri007

    robertpri007 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2012
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    3
    I'm interested. Titles of those books?
     
  22. lex

    lex Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    525
    Likes Received:
    32
    One of them is The Tailor of Panama. I can't at the moment remember the other, but I remember thinking - on finding "that character" in the Panama Book - "Ah yes, this technique was also used in a later book I liked". It might be Our Game, but no promises. :oops:

    (A "funny book", Our Game: some wonderful writing, but perhaps the most frustrating and disappointing ending I've seen in a Le Carré book).
     
  23. robertpri007

    robertpri007 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2012
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    3
    Hmmm, I think I have every La Carre book except that one.
     
  24. lex

    lex Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    525
    Likes Received:
    32
    That's a lot of books. I have only about 19/20 of them, I think. (And I haven't read A Delicate Truth yet. Our Kind of Traitor disappointed me, so I might even wait for the paperback).
     
  25. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    19,150
    Likes Received:
    1,034
    Location:
    Coquille, Oregon
    i just caught the film version of 'the tailor of panama' on cable the other night... a thoroughly enjoyable romp with stellar performances by geoffery rush [as usual] and pierce brosnan [to my surprise!]... had read it years ago and thought the adaptation was pretty well done...

    i've also read most, if not all of le carre's work...
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice