Fantasy lacks originality these days

Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by Bright Shadow, Jan 26, 2014.

  1. Bryan Romer

    Bryan Romer Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2014
    Messages:
    889
    Likes Received:
    391
    How about the Warhammer fantasy universe? Very little resemblance to Tolkien although there might be vampires, dwarves and dragons. Or Michael Moorcock's "Elric" and other fantasy series? I think that one particular stream of fantasy had become prominent driven by successful novels, films and TV shows. Focus and popularity shift with time and fashion.

    The Shadowrun universe has all the classical races, but with deckers and cyber corporations and dragons that are successful businessmen and politicians, it is hardly Tolkienesque either.
     
  2. SuperVenom

    SuperVenom Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2010
    Messages:
    475
    Likes Received:
    71
    Location:
    South Wales
    Think Bryan has proved that you can used the same icons and creatures and still have a lush fantasy world different to its predecessors. Dragons etc. will always play apart in fantasy as at the same time as pushing the envelope we also take comfort in some small form of the familiar to.
     
  3. MilesTro

    MilesTro Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,233
    Likes Received:
    101
    Location:
    Springfield
    I have dragons too in my book, except they are aliens who steal treasure from different worlds. My dragons used to live on Earth, until they all got abducted by aliens and turned into super soldiers. After they turned against their masters, they started their own government. Why do they like to steal treasure and kidnap beautiful girls? Because it's their nature. They are like cats who are attracted to pretty things. And their culture revolves around looting planets to satisfy their greedy nature.

    You can take something cliche' and turn it into something unique.
     
  4. thewordsmith

    thewordsmith Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    868
    Likes Received:
    125
    Location:
    State of Confusion
    Even the female dragons kidnap beautiful girls? Whyyy?
     
  5. MilesTro

    MilesTro Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,233
    Likes Received:
    101
    Location:
    Springfield
    Maybe because one of them is a lesbian? Actually they sometimes kidnap pretty guys too. Anything that looks beautiful and valuable to their eyes, they take it. They keep the capture victims like pets. Also I found this on cracked.com.

    http://www.cracked.com/funny-4783-fantasy-books/
     
  6. SuperVenom

    SuperVenom Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2010
    Messages:
    475
    Likes Received:
    71
    Location:
    South Wales
    I thought because most fantasy back then was written by or for men. And guys always want the damsal in distress amd dragons, so combine the two. The best for drogon biology and lore woild be flight of dragons. Check it out, the book not the cartoon (which also has its merits).
     
  7. wade-newb

    wade-newb Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    33
    Location:
    South Africa
    Well, I'm writing fantasy with a largely African tilt. That at least gets rid of the Medieval Europe trope.
     
  8. Passero

    Passero Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    20
    Location:
    London
    I actually don't mind all those cliches as long as the story is interesting and there are original elements in it.

    I'm playing with an idea in my head about a world were people are actually fruit. During the day they are just people but at night they transfer to fruit and go back to their tree to replenish their energy.
     
  9. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    23,826
    Likes Received:
    20,815
    Location:
    El Tembloroso Caribe
    Frankly I feel that the whole WoW, epic-quest, Tolkien reboot of the last 10-ish years has ruined and undermined what Fantasy "is". The other backhoe at work is the supernatural-romance. These two phenomena seem to have drastically narrowed the idea of what the genre "is". There's so much more. So much.
     
    sylvertech and thewordsmith like this.
  10. Bryan Romer

    Bryan Romer Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2014
    Messages:
    889
    Likes Received:
    391
    Because all the men the dragons meet tend to be in tin cans and need an opener to get at. The beautiful girls are wrapped only in fine delicate robes and dresses and more like convenience food.
     
  11. Kaidonni

    Kaidonni Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    9
    I find this the wrong way to look at coming up with new fantasy concepts. A lot of Medieval settings just aren't - they lack a significant understanding of what defined Europe's Medieval era (Christianity and the fall of the Western Roman Empire being a major influence), and certainly don't seem to be rooted in proper historical research. It wasn't a pretty time to live in, and there weren't any noble royal families (some may have performed great feats and changed the course of history, but cross them and you're either going to be maimed or killed in a brutal manner). What people should be thinking in terms of is feudalism and the other governments of the era, divorcing them from specific cultural and religious influences. If Western Rome never fell and Christianity never took hold, the Medieval era would have been completely different.

    As for demons, there's more out there to mythology than typical Western European monsters - why not write about other cultures and their demons instead? Granted, you're playing in someone else's backyard and need to be aware of cultural appropriation issues, et al, but it's the next step to writing original fantasy (rather than completely abandoning demons).

    As for werewolves, I am using were-creatures in my writing, but they have nothing to do with the traditional horror or fantasy versions whatsoever (my inspiration comes from research into the fox folklore of Japan, and a curiosity for conworlding and thinking about how different cultures might work).
     
    TDFuhringer likes this.
  12. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 11, 2013
    Messages:
    2,968
    Likes Received:
    2,007
    Location:
    Virginia, United States
    I agree with you completely! If I have to see another book about vampires, I'm going to scream.

    I applaud some people for trying to do cliche characters differently, like Aprilynne Pike. She turned her faeries into plants. Or Marissa Marr and her "dark and dangerous" faeries. But let's tell the truth here: they're still faeries.

    I write fantasy. I've always loved fantasy and everything that went along with it. When I first started, I was guilty of writing about faeries and demons and whatnot. But I've tried to branch out from that. The newest novel I started working on does include most of those typical fantasy characters (vampires, werewolves, faeries), but they're in a futuristic setting and I've included many other types that either aren't common or that I made up. Another novel that I'm working on takes place in a completely made-up world with 100% made-up races.

    I used to go on another forum and I'd often see people ask, "Can anyone help me find this creature?" They'd list the abilities or characteristics they want their character to have and ask the forum to help them find the demon or creature that fits their description. My response was ALWAYS, "Why don't you just make your own?" If you know what you want your character to be like, why does it have to fit some mold? Think outside of the box and go with what you want, not what already exists.

    I must say though, sometimes using common fantasy material is refreshing. I don't think we should nix it all together. But I believe that more people should try to twist what fantasy really means. The new and refreshing ideas always stand out to me and I hope to read more in the future.
     
  13. Bryan Romer

    Bryan Romer Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2014
    Messages:
    889
    Likes Received:
    391
    Mostly the stock fantasy characters are used because they have an established persona in the publics' mind. It's a form of shorthand or stereotyping that the author knows will produce the required associations in the reader's mind.

    New creatures require a lot of work to effectively establish their characteristics. It's like SF writers using the US Marines as the basis for their future soldiers. Everyone knows what Marines are supposed to be like and how they operate. They borrow on the reputation and PR that others have done in the past. Not saying it is good or even desirable, but that is why it works and why writers stick with Elves and Orcs etc.
     
    sylvertech likes this.
  14. Kaidonni

    Kaidonni Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    9
    In my opinion, it depends. Sometimes, basing creatures on real world mythology can give stories a certain resonance with the public. For one of my stories I was creating my own creatures, but my research on Kitsune makes me feel like they are far more suitable for the task, and they don't feel nearly as contrived. Given that I'm using non-Western creatures, I'm also more inclined to base the story in the suitable locale and with a suitable cultural background to it. The real world can inform on fantasy, and Tolkien didn't just make up his races and creatures - the important thing is to understand the source of your inspiration, as he did. Sometimes, just making things up can make work feel flat and empty because they aren't informed by an understanding of the complexities of real world mythology.
     
  15. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 11, 2013
    Messages:
    2,968
    Likes Received:
    2,007
    Location:
    Virginia, United States
    Very true. The novel I mentioned above that takes place in futuristic America? I pulled a lot of inspiration from traditional fantasy and twisted it to fit the futuristic world I'd created -- almost like they evolved to fit their world. I agree that people connect with certain lore and makes it easier to relate to them. But sometimes people use that as a crutch. Almost like they think, everyone likes vampires (or werewolves or faeries or medieval times) so my story doesn't have to be great because my character is already liked. Yanno what I mean?
     
  16. yagr

    yagr Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2012
    Messages:
    320
    Likes Received:
    168
    Location:
    West Coast
    I just wrote one. A key problem with such a novel is the lack of familiarity. While I'm not claiming that my writing prowess, or lack thereof, isn't another key problem, there is a publishing challenge when one is outside the realm of successful paradigms. A well written and intelligently plotted story about elves and dragons, or werewolves and vampires will probably sell and I think that most publishers are aware of this. On the other hand, a well written and intelligently plotted story about maramelle's and misos takes a bit of risk that many are simply going to pass on.

    I am not an expert on such matters by any means, but I'm betting that new paradigms are going to be seen as too risky for a publisher to jump on.
     
  17. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,620
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    I agree with this to a point but it's kinda like taking pot shots at the romance genre and saying I can't believe all romances are about people in love. You'll never get rid of general themes or tropes.

    I think the trouble I have with the ideas is not necessarily the idea itself - vampires, dragons whatnot - it's more the execution itself. Each generation creates a sort of pattern and tone that the other writers pick up. It's rarely noticed while your in the generation but if you read a handful of sci-fi or fantasy from a past decade ( not the best of the bunch - I'm talking the lowbrow authors ) you'll see they can sound similar. And not often in a good way.

    They're hampered by the time they live in - they can't help it - it's like Dr. Maureen Robinson in Lost in Space despite her title, despite the future decade - is still reduced to doing laundry and cooking meals. The writers/creators can not imagine 1999 without 1965 getting in the way because they are trying to appeal to the viewers of 1965. In a way they're playing it safe.

    I think books are not just a product of imagination but imagination caught in the time its written which is both good and bad. Because a lot of writers are looking at the same things, absorbing the same ideas, trends and unfortunately not bringing enough of their own style and their own self ( subconscious guilts, fears, angers, loves - any deeper themes ) to the project.

    Consider a typical writer attempting a vampire story specifically because they love vampire stories. First they'll have absorbed all the typical vampire tropes. If they branch out and read a lot of modern stories they will still be picking up typical modern trends. When they talk to their friends about specific t.v. shows or internet articles or movies, everything will probably be modern down to the Dr. Phil pop psychology, catch phrases, everyday trends, thinking, and views. Everything is absorbed along with their own experiences. But when the writer sits down to write she/he has to fight through the familiar. But at the same time why fight whats accepted? Why go out on a limb? Plus, a lot of writers want to be modern, they want to catch the feeling of now. But there's a drawback. Is it now, your version or now, the consensus version ( a bit of a rehash)? The vampire story then becomes in danger of just being another vampire story written A.T ( after twilight ) D. V ( during Vampire Diaries ) bearing all the markings.

    And if you want something new in fantasy something like Kafka or Vonnegut - all you can do is be the author to change the tide.
     
  18. Fizpok

    Fizpok New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    4
    It is like saying "why do they always make meat pies with meat?" Why don't they make it with apples?!
    They do. But it is called apple pies, not meat pies.
    Same with Fantasy, it is about sword, magic, fairies and (sorry) vampires. And if not - it is not Fantasy anymore.
     
    sylvertech likes this.
  19. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    Complete nonsense.
     
    sylvertech likes this.
  20. Bryan Romer

    Bryan Romer Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2014
    Messages:
    889
    Likes Received:
    391
    I don't think that is a given. Many will want to target their book to an existing group of readers purely because it increases their chances of selling or because they are fans of that style and genre, but not everyone will be that way.

    The MC in my latest novel is female, a test pilot, and is a vampire. Her first kill is a rabbit, and she doesn't experience "unspeakable urges" to bite people on the neck. Sunlight doesn't hurt her although her eyes are more sensitive than before, neither do garlic or crosses. Although she does have fangs and claws, her favourite weapon is an automatic shotgun. The male MC doesn't fall in love with her although he finds her interesting. He's a vampire too, and also an industrialist in the IT and military equipment field. No coffins either.

    There are also werewolves who aren't affected by the moon and don't wear leather jackets.
     
    sylvertech likes this.
  21. vera2014

    vera2014 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2014
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    71
    I think originality depends on how much a person has already read and watched. If you've seen it all then you've seen it all--sort of like Q from Star Trek. Lately, I've been reading a copy of Merriam-Webster's Vocabulary Builder. It's drawn me into a whole new universe of words and definitions.
     
  22. thewordsmith

    thewordsmith Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    868
    Likes Received:
    125
    Location:
    State of Confusion
    Funny you should mention that. I've always used the dictionary argument of writing. (The words are already there, it's just how you put them together.)
    My mum once said, "I don't see how you do that! Write all of those words. How can you think of all of those words?"
    I told her I don't. I use the same ones over and over!
     
    sylvertech likes this.
  23. vera2014

    vera2014 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2014
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    71
    I agree, the words are already there. I tried to read the dictionary once; the hardest thing about doing that was that it became harder to guess what the average reader would understand. The book "The Elements of Style" warns against choosing words that aren't common enough.
     
    sylvertech likes this.
  24. Glen Snow

    Glen Snow New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2014
    Messages:
    85
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    So....The Client by John Grisham?

    Fact time:
    People like Dragons.
    People like Swords and fancy lord talk.
    People like Magic.
    People like Fantasy.

    Proof being, The success of The Lord of the Rings, A Song of Fire and Ice, Harry Potter.
    Tv shows Supernatural, Buffy, True Blood and whatever demon/vampire show is on Fox/CW at the time of you reading this.

    If you don't like "cliche" in fantasy then don't read or write fantasy you find cliched. Look at Rowling, she took nearly everyone of those cliche items up there, added in the classic "Chosen One" cliche, and produced 7 bestselling novels. Same thing with GRRM minus the Vampire, fairies and werewolves.
     
    sylvertech and TDFuhringer like this.
  25. Dagolas

    Dagolas Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2012
    Messages:
    642
    Likes Received:
    68
    Location:
    France
    If I wanted money and fame, I'd write "Super-Ninja Zombie Kid High School", which recounts the adventures of magical super-natural mutated zombies (with "epic super-powers") who go to a high school for super-ninja zombies and have magical adventures against the Dark Lord of Death Rahankak"lopélpmén (Do not attempt to pronounce).

    Unfortunately, that would be utter rot (but I'd be famous, so... profit?), so I'm (trying to) write something original for my novel.
     
    Vandor76 and sylvertech like this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice