1. cutecat22
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    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Feeling Strange - Advice Please?

    Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by cutecat22, Mar 25, 2015.

    Hi guys,

    Something's happened and I'm not sure how I should feel about it, probably nothing but ...

    I was flicking through eBay and came across a copy of my book for sale, no big deal but they wanted something like £15.00 plus postage.

    Now, this is self published and only available on ebook and p/back through Amazon so I was kinda thinking how can someone want to sell a second hand book from an unknown author for double it's paperback price?

    Turns out, the five or so which are listed, are listed by booksellers/shops. Looks to me like you order with them through ebay, they order it from amazon and pass it on to the customer.

    The thing is:

    Yes - its publicity I guess but,
    No - I never authorized anyone but Amazon to sell it, according to Amazon, I'm supposed to be exclusive to them.
    No - The sellers are adding their cut and making it look like I'm getting a lot more for the book than I actually am, in fact, they will get around £5 to £6 PER PAPERBACK COPY that they sell where as I get 52p per copy (yes, FIFTY TWO PENCE per paperback copy sold)
    No - Who is actually going to spend that amount on a book? It's more likely they will think "f**k that!" and then tell all their friends how I'm nothing but a rip off merchant wanting all that money for a book and who the hell am I anyway??

    OK, I'm getting myself worked up in a frenzy of heart palpitations and shortness of breath now.

    What should I do??? (about eBay, not the palpitations ...)
     
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  2. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    Send eBay a takedown notice.
     
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  3. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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  4. cutecat22
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    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Thank you steerpike! Onto it now ...
     
  5. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    No problem. I send a lot of these to eBay, and they usually respond pretty quickly. I suppose it would be interesting to consider whether there is infringement here. I'd argue there is, but I haven't researched that particular issue. If Amazon's automated processes found this, you could get booted from the Kindle Select program, which is another reason to send the takedown (Amazon will reinstate you, but you have to wrangle with their CSRs to do it).
     
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  6. Mckk
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    Mckk Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Nobody's gonna think you're a rip-off - everyone knows you get all kinds of sellers on ebay and the person listing the item is the fraud, not you. Sometimes I see an outrageous price on an item and I just think they're dumb for thinking anyone would fall for it.

    Better to go for the trick of 99p Buy It Now + £29.99 postage :D

    But yeah, I wouldn't worry about it. The only thing that'd annoy me is the thought that someone who didn't even do the work of writing the damn book is getting more profit than I am as the author! If it was a publishing house with whom I signed a contract, well fair's fair, I signed. But this ebay thing - yeeeah that'd piss me off.
     
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  7. cutecat22
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    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    It pee'd me off too! Friends are like "Oh, yay, great, free advertising!" and I'm like "Nooooo!!!! they might as well be pirating my hard work!"
     
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  8. stevesh
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    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    I'm far from an expert in this field, but I really don't see any copyright violation here. No one is representing your work as their own. I know that software and (especially) music have turned a lot copyright law on its head, but if the shop in question wants to pay your Amazon price for your book, then resell it at a higher price, that's kind of how the used book business works. I'd call it a 'buyer beware' situation for the eBay customers.

    If I buy a 1965 Ford Mustang, then sell it for more than it cost new, does Ford have a beef since I didn't do the work of manufacturing the damn thing?
     
  9. Mckk
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    Mckk Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor

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    In the case of Ford, they did already make a handsome profit at their first sale and they're also a very successful car manufacturer. By contrast, us unknown authors have no name, little success, and almost no profit - and then someone makes off with a profit on our hardwork... that's a lot more gutting, I think.

    Manufacturing a car in a factory is also less personal than writing a book, which adds to the being gutted factor.
     
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  10. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    @stevesh yes, I think that's generally true with respect to physical works. I'd still send the takedown, though, because Amazon uses an automated system to look for the work for sale elsewhere online, if you're in the Kindle Select program like cutecat22 is, and if they find sales elsewhere they kick you out of the program. If the eBay listing returns a hit and gets him kicked out of the program, it could result in reduced royalties from Amazon. Further, after repeated violations Amazon will ban the entire account from participating in the program.
     
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  11. stevesh
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    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    Understood, but I still think the 'first sale' doctrine should apply. Also, technically it isn't 'for sale elsewhere'. Amazon still gets the original sale. Another job for the lawyers, I guess.
     
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  12. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    @stevesh Yep. That's why I was thinking it would be interesting whether this constitutes infringement. The right to sell is one of the bundle of rights provided by copyright. The First Sale doctrine extinguishes that right, traditionally. Here, the offer to sell is made prior to any other sale of the work, so it looks more like an initial sale even though behind the scenes the eBay seller is transacting with Amazon for the book. I guess it would make an interesting case.
     
  13. stevesh
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    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    @Steerpike I haven't read Amazon's TOS, but surely it requires that the author not make the book available anywhere else? I heard a guy on the radio just last night complaining that he found used copies of his books being sold offered for outlandish prices on Amazon, where he chooses not to sell them. Sort of the reverse of this situation. I doubt if he has recourse, either.
     
  14. cutecat22
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    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    The point is (apart form their profit) I have a contract with Amazon, they could kick me off their platform, it could take me a long time to get back on and I could potentially lose sales.

    It's fraud!
     
  15. cutecat22
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    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Going by my sales figures, the customer orders from ebay, the ebay seller order from createspace, createspace post out to ebat seller, ebay seller repackages and posts to customer.

    So the ebay seller hasn't even got anything to sell until the customer places the order!

    That is fraud!
     
  16. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Looked into this just now. It's on EBay UK by a large bookseller. So I went to Amazon to see if that same bookseller had copies there as well. Amazon often has multiple booksellers selling a single book, some that ship through Amazon and some that ship on their own.

    But instead of finding copies available through ... the Amazon site for the paperback says, out of stock.

    By the way, you have a good position on your Kindle sales record, (#231,478 Paid in Kindle Store) and 7 good reviews is not too shabby. :agreed:

    Also, not sure if the laws are the same in the UK and the US. @Steerpike would know.
     
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  17. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    I do get the weird feeling but I agree with stevesh here. I mean it isn't like they copied the words of the book down and printed off there computer and sold that. I mean then they would be undercutting you and the risk of misquoting you would give me nightmares.

    In this case it isn't really any different then a bookstore buying 100 copies. I mean I suppose in the book stores case they probably contact you or something that represents you. Then again how many copies did you see them selling?

    Makes me wonder if you walked down a street and saw someone selling your book in a garage sale. That wouldn't anger you would it? Even if it price was 10x yours?
     
  18. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    OK, I found it. Createspace deals with wholesellers and libraries.

    https://www.createspace.com/pub/l/createspacedirect.do
     
  19. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    And there is more about it on this FAQ page:
    https://www.createspace.com/pub/simplesitesearch.search.do?sitesearch_query=resellers&sitesearch_type=SITE

     
  20. cutecat22
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    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Just checked amazon.com and .co.uk but I'm getting an in stock message. (from amazon directly)

    I had noticed that there are a few available in the used section of Amazon, from market sellers etc, but as they are selling through Amazon, then I thought Amazon would already know about it and, well, I don't know what I thought!

    And thanks for the thumbs up!

    :friend:
     
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  21. cutecat22
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    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    But I don't know if the ebay sellers are registered as a Direct Reseller.

    If they are, and they get a discount then that's an even bigger insult to me. The reseller gets £5.00 per book sold and the author gets 52 pence per book sold? Something very wrong there!

    Libraries, yes - I agreed to libraries/schools(age appropriate)/universities having access to my book, this was part of the agreement when I set up my creatspace account.

    If someone wants to buy the book, read it and put it in a garage sale (or ebay or whatever) and sell it for £squillions, then that's up to them, but only if they are a private seller selling used but now unwanted, items. Not a business!
     
  22. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    I can think of a few reasons an author might object to this arrangement.

    In any event, if you send the takedown notice, it may well end up getting removed. If the seller wants to object to that, they'll have to file a response to the takedown notice and you can go from there.
     
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  23. cutecat22
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    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    As I'm UK based, I've gone onto the UK version of your link. I have to print a PDF copy of a notice of infringement form out, fill it in and fax it to them. Filled in, will be faxed tomorrow.

    I have also emailed the question to KDP at Amazon too - will see what they come back with.

    If it's all above board and legal, then I can't really argue, unless I want to go straight to the seller and ask them for a percentage! :-D

    But - like most things - that doesn't mean it's fair!
     
  24. cutecat22
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    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    There are actually 12 reviews, (8 on the ebook on amazon.co.uk and 4 on the paperback between .co.uk and .com) :-D
     
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  25. BayView
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    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    Does Kindle Select apply to print versions? I thought the restrictions only applied to the e-versions...
     

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