1. lostinwebspace
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    lostinwebspace Active Member

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    For all you gun experts: carbines

    Discussion in 'Research' started by lostinwebspace, Aug 6, 2015.

    Simple question: do you need to cock a carbine?
     
  2. nippy818
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    nippy818 Active Member

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    Yes. every firearm needs to be cocked in some way. With a Winchester you use the lever, revolver you use the hammer and so on. The way you cock it depends on the type of carbine.
     
  3. mg357
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    mg357 Active Member

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    Yes you definitely need to cock a carbine for a semi-automatic carbine such as the M1 Carbine for example the cocking handle is on the side and it must be cocked which chambers the first round of ammunition.
     
  4. General Daedalus
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    General Daedalus Active Member

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    Most definitely, most carbines are semi-auto (take your M1 Garand or M14, for example) but you always have to chamber the first round. That's by design- if you didn't have to cock it, the first round would fly into the combustion chamber as soon as you pushed a clip in. If they're not semi auto, then they have to be cocked after each shot. This is very uncommon in modern carbines (we're talking carbines here, exclusively, forget your generic rifle classification), and you'll see single-shot carbines in older settings (Wild West, for example), especially with manufacturers like Winchester.
     
  5. nippy818
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    nippy818 Active Member

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    the M1 and M14 are battle rifles not carbines lol. There is an M1 Carbine and Mini 14 though. Originally carbines were shortened rifles or muskets used by calvary. a modern carbine is a smaller rifle (possible based on a full sized rifle) that fires either a pistol cartridge or a round between pistol and rifle. The Kel Tec 2000 fires 9mm or .40 cal, where the M4 carbine fres the .556 NATO/.223. Most model 92 Winchester carbines fire revolver cartridges ie. .357 mag, .44 mag, and .45 long colt.
     
  6. Selbbin
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    Selbbin I hate you Contributor

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    Yes, unless you're swapping clips and have a round in the chamber already.

    As mentioned carbines are just shorter barrel versions of long arm weapons (rifles). The logic of needing to cock the weapon is thus: You need to get a round in the chamber before you can fire it. While firing auto or semi-auto weapons they reload the next round by diverting some of the expanding gas from the explosion, using that energy to reset the hammer, eject the fired casing and load a new round. It's like an engine. As long as you can keep firing it keeps reloading. But when you have no round to fire, or have run out and put in a fresh magazine, you need to manually replicate this action. This is cocking the weapon. But my experience is limited to the F88 AusSteyr and M249 Minimi (SAW).

    However, if you still have a round in the chamber and then swap out your magazines, because you can still fire a round to harness the energy for a reload you don't need to cock the weapon.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
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  7. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    Ummm. Am I the only one who sees the difference between cocking a gun, and chambering a round? @lostinwebspace are you just writing something along the effects of "He cocked his weapon"? Because this can mean two things.

    When you cock the hammer of a gun you're pulling back the hammer, like this.
    [​IMG]
    Every gun has a device like this, though sometimes it's called a firing pin and looks nothing like that picture. This is the part that hits the end of a round and causes the gunpowder to ignite. Sometimes hen you cock a pistol or a rifle or a shotgun, this merely means pulling back the hammer.

    Other times you have a situation like this:
    [​IMG]
    Most modern guns use a action system like this. The first action you see there is a round being "chambered". Until a round is in the chamber it can't be fired. No weapon will let you load a magazine and immediately start firing. Instead you have to chamber a round by "racking" or "actioning" or sometimes "cocking" the gun, like this slack jawed yokel does at 1:30:

    This is probably what you meant. Most carbines are fed like this. If you were writing something like
    This would be apropriate. However if you were writing
    Then the first instance would be correct. You don't cock a weapon when you're staring down the barrel. At that point you know you have a round chambered and are ready to dispense death.
     
  8. Selbbin
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    Selbbin I hate you Contributor

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    You're right, but with many semi-auto and auto weapons you also need to reset the hammer / firing mechanism when loading a fresh round. Not always, depending on the design and/or if you just finished a clip/magazine. 'Cocking' has become a generic term for the action of pulling back the bolt and resetting the weapon. They used the term in the Army when I was there, even while they refused to call anything but an artillery piece a gun.

    Part of the action of cocking a revolver is to also turn the cylinder so that the next round is ready to be fired, so it is also 'chambering' as such, and moving the spent cartridge away automatically.

    You can cock a carbine without chambering a round and then firing it empty. Not good for the weapon though. Either way it's the same action. As far as a carbine is concerned, there won't be much use for doing this without putting a round in the chamber, but you could put a round in without needing to reset the hammer. But you'd still need to follow the same action. So you'd still be 'cocking' it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
  9. Selbbin
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    Selbbin I hate you Contributor

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    Some do, as long as the bolt or pin is under tension. There are rifles that do it which escape me, but they follow the same principle that I know the M249 uses, which allows it to fire with no rounds in the chamber. But yeah that's a belt fed weapon. You never chamber the round, you simply pull back the bolt so it is under tension and then load the belt (if I remember the order correctly). As soon as you pull the trigger, the bolt is released and pushes the round into the chamber, pushing the pin in moments later, the resulting recoil sends the bolt back and compresses the spring. As long as you hold the trigger down the bolt goes back and forth, with each forward action pushing a round in the chamber and firing, with each backwards action ejecting the casing with the link. Releasing the trigger locks the bolt in the tensioned position, ready to fire while the chamber remains empty.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
  10. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    Yeah, I wasn't thinking of belt fed. I'd post a picture @lostinwebspace, but I'm too tired to look it up right now. Needless to say though that a belt fed gun is going to be fully automated. As @Selbbin says, a full auto weapon will keep firing as long as you hold the trigger. They are however very illegal for civilians to posses in the States. If your story takes place here it's very unlikely that your character has a fully auto weapon, unless he's in the military.
     
  11. Aaron DC
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    Aaron DC Contributing Member

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    :superlaugh:

    Why do they have instant actions for M60 then? ;)
     
  12. nippy818
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    nippy818 Active Member

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    According to the 86 machine gun act you can purchase any full auto made before 1986. It requires a special tax stamp per weapon. you can also own short barreled rifles and shotguns as well as explosives. Technically their are several GE mini guns produced for use in Vietnam you can purchase. Go to the website Gunbroker sometime and type in machine guns and you'll find plenty.
     
  13. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    That's very interesting, I did not know that.
    @lostinwebspace here is an image that might explain the belt fed gun issue. As you can see chambering a round is unnecessary because the entire assembly opens and the first round is placed directly in front of the barrel
    [​IMG]
    Notice the bolt on the right side. This model would have to be cocked, just like the other weapons we've talked about. That's not necessarily true of every chain fed weapon, thought off the top of my head I wouldn't be able to name one.
     
  14. nippy818
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    nippy818 Active Member

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    The stamp for full autos
    I havnt seen a belt fed that didn't need the firing system to be charged (same as cocking)
     
  15. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    You could be right about that one. I feel sure that I've heard it mentioned, but I don't really trust anyone in my circle when they talk about guns.
     
  16. lostinwebspace
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    lostinwebspace Active Member

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    Whoa. Haha! Turn your back for a few days and you spark a discussion! This is awesome, everyone. Gimme a little while to sort through the responses but you guys are knocking this answer out of the park!
     

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