Friend gave hurtful advice. Thoughts, please?

Discussion in 'Revision and Editing' started by jc., Jan 29, 2012.

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  1. jc.

    jc. Member

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    Hi psychotick, thank you for the very specific critique. I have found the breakdown and comments of my work especially helpful. It makes it a lot easier for me to see the areas that are good, and the areas that still need work.

    Also, it never occurred to me that it sounded like I was rushing through and was trying to compensate by stuffing more details into each sentence. This is actually true now you've brought it to my attention. I'm still trying to find a more clever and less obvious way to info dump without wasting too much space (since there is a word limit). I saved your review because I think the admins might delete your comment, unfortunately. I was warned about receiving critique on here. I'm so sorry if your comment gets deleted.

    Your comments have helped a lot and I thank you. Your input is very much appreciated. I will also have to follow your advice and not baby my work (or treat it as such) as much, and seek help from neutral readers.
     
  2. GoldenGhost

    GoldenGhost Senior Member

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    Of course. This time we will agree. Just because everyone is entitled to their opinion doesn't mean said opinion is 'polite'. There are times when things can be said and when times things shouldn't and for my exp. specifically he said it at an appropriate time between me and him as friends. But don't give up. Keep your head up. And never forget no matter what happens, we don't necessarily write because we write well. We write because it allows us to channel our energy. Sure we want to strive and do it competently but lets face it, I think we all write because it gives us something outside of it being good in other peoples eyes. The difference between people who succeed and people who fail are the people who have succeeded, learned from their mistakes and picked themselves up every-time they fell. The people who have failed, gave up after their first attempt and climbed into a hole and cried.
     
  3. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    it's not just adverbs, but adjectives as well... they're useful things used in moderation... you just go overboard with 'em...

    do more reading of the best-written fiction... study how the really fine writers use imagery at its best...
     
  4. HorusEye

    HorusEye Contributor Contributor

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    So much good advice here, not much can be added. I'd only recommend you read Hemingway if you haven't. If you have, read some of it again. He can make a short and simple sentence carry far more weight than a hundred adjectives. And the great thing about having a minimalistic style: when you use a word, your reader knows you mean it literally, and once you do need to hammer something in hard, it'll feel all the more dramatic.
     
  5. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

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    I understand what your friend meant, I think, but since he was not specific, I can just say that I found your writing overloaded with adjectives and adverbs, as well as unecessary verbiage like 'it seemed'. Apart from that, you don't need to change your style. I think that in time, this is something writers do anyway. Keep working on it, concentrating more on the showing instead of telling aspect of the story, and you'll be fine.

    The lightened-up version:

    The newborn’s cry echoed through The Swan’s empty halls. A dim light and the blinking of computer diodes illuminated the chemical smelling room and reflected off of the surfaces of the laboratory’s apparatus. There was nothing warm or welcoming about this place. But of course how could it be? This space vessel belonged to LEDA (the Lunar Engineering Department of Adaptation), and more specifically, this was Dr. Valerie Adler’s lab.

    An unemotional blond woman in a lab coat was examining a baby with a flashlight and blunt instrument. The room had become silent again except for the scientist’s breathing and the beeping of monitors. When she was confident with the information she’d gathered, she peeled off the latex gloves. Everything was going according to plan.

    The words I deleted were doing nothing for me. If it is important to say that the light is artificial, for example, don't string it next to the other adjective, give another sentence showing where the light source comes from. If you want to show how she's working, don't just say 'carefully', show how she is being careful.

    Hope this helps.
     
  6. yagr

    yagr Senior Member

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    jc,

    One of the things that draws me to writing...I'm probably going to sound a bit arrogant here and don't mean to...

    I have degree's in math and physics. Such fields are right up my alley as there are always objective answers and if one learns the material and the rules, they are immutable. In other words, 2+2=4 and always will. Doesn't matter if the professor or the critique likes you or doesn't; if you come up with an answer of 4, you are correct. The problem is, this type of thinking has always been easy for me. Striving for perfection in these fields is actually attainable and it fails to adequately challenge me because the feedback loop is so reliable. 2+2 is always 4.

    On the other hand, you should never start a sentence with the word 'and'....although there are remarkable exceptions. Therein lies the challenge for me and it's in such fields that I find myself drawn to. Chess is often thought of as a completely logical game, but there is an art to it at the higher levels. I dove into it for this reason and became a chess master. Poker is another such field. You have to know how many 'outs' you have and what the pot odds are versus your money odds - which are strictly mathematical in nature, but you have to know your opponent as well - and therein lies the art. I've been a professional poker player for 24 years and written a book on the game. In my opinion, writing is exactly like both of these - it plays to both sides of the brain.

    In college, I turned in the exact same paper in two classes. My English comp 101 professor, who actually had a crush on me, took me aside and said that she couldn't accept it - that it was horrid. I turned the same paper in to another class and the professor held it up to the class as an example of an ingenious paper. Again, it was the same paper! All writing is not going to appeal to all people. As a result, the feedback loop stinks. Some think that substance is more important than style, others think that style is everything. Your friend gave you an honest appraisal, but you very well have chosen a genre that he despises, or a style that that he can't stomach. You're trying and honest effort yields results.

    I'll tell you this, your posts have an honesty to them that I find appealing. If you bring that to your writing, the rest can be worked on.
     
  7. jc.

    jc. Member

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    Hey everyone,

    Just to give this thread some closure, I got a more detailed critique back from the same friend. He said that he didn't mean to be so blunt and that he was just busy that day and thought I would get what he meant, so that was nice to hear. It was also interesting to see that he pretty much echoed everyone's sentiments here. He actually said something nice too (gasp) but I was more pleased about the the stuff you all mentioned.

    Anyway I used his more thorough analysis and your advice and compiled a list of things to work on here:

    Writing Goals
    - Eliminate adverbs when possible

    - Describe more, and without the use of adjectives

    - Quality over quantity, don’t rush writing

    - Use “said”

    - Show more, tell less

    - Cut out unnecessary fluff

    - Keep sentences simple and short (easier to digest)

    - Don’t be redundant (reverberating echo)

    - Use proper SPAG

    - Thicken skin, seek critique and ask questions often


    Please let me know if you think I missed anything. Thank you all immensely for your time and kind consideration.

    JC
     
  8. TDFuhringer

    TDFuhringer Contributor Contributor

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    :D Wonderful! I'm delighted for you that your friend clarified his original statements. I'm sure that's a relief. It's great to hear your Writing Goals. They are all excellent and will serve you well. I can't wait to read what you write next!
     
  9. Cacian

    Cacian Banned

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    I think any advice is better then none.
    I get lots of not so nice advice all the time but I stick to my guns and take on board what they said too.
    Writing is a personal journey and as long as you have enjoyed writing it then nothing really else matter.
    Everyone is different and not everyone is going to agree or like what you do or say.
    I think you should just either ignore it and think that this person does not really understand and move on,because critiques do not always understand and get it right they don't really know you.
     
  10. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    From the 2 paragraphs I read - now bear in mind I don't actually like or read sci-fi, ok? - but from what I read, I'd agree with your friend that you sound like you're trying too hard. Too many adjectives - have some faith in your readers that they'll get it, rather than spoon-feed them too much. But then again, I hate detailed writing :D I didn't even enjoy the details in Tolkien's LOTR or Stieg Larsson's Girl with the Dragon Tattoo for the same reasons. I prefer more poetry. But this is a style preference. However, I can also understand what your friend meant by your style being a little "distracting" - because you try to put in so much detail into one single sentence, the reader has no time or space to think and really imagine the story and get into it.

    For me personally, you don't have to "ditch your style" - to be honest I like some of your wording etc. I don't know how to explain it but I can see that you know how to write, your word choices are purposeful, and all it is is that you're trying to cram too much in, you know? Follow your friend's advice and try and write "plainly" - that's not to say you should write like that forever - but right now that's what you DON'T know how to do. So make yourself write plainly, re-read stuff and ask yourself, "But does my reader absolutely NEED to know this little piece of detail RIGHT NOW and is there any other way of conveying it in a more interesting manner?" I'm sure you'll see improvements.

    If it's any consolation, throughout my time at university when I was writing essays, I was "trying too hard" and I didn't even know it. I wanted it to sound good, smart, beautiful, so so very much that my sentences became over-elaborate and convoluted. And then I sorta "gave up" trying and I just thought, screw it I'm just gonna bang out this essay, my writing became a lot clearer and better haha and those essays I got higher marks in too. So if you're "trying too hard" it's not necessarily to say you're a bad writer - not at all - but it just means well, you're not quite confident in your writing yet, and you're just trying very hard to learn. There's nothing wrong with that and the confidence will come. Sometimes have a little bit of faith in yourself too :)

    Also, my work has been absolutely torn apart by a trusted, experienced writer before - torn to shreds - I was told that I was absolutely an appalling writer and cannot write to save my life, and that I should simply quit trying because it's just a blind waste of time if you asked that person.

    And I've since found an editor - also experienced and trusted, who've pushed books out to agents and the MS have been accepted and published; he's been editing for over 20 years - and he tells me that he LOVES my style. He loves my quirky usage of words and description, and he's excited to see how my novel's gonna come out and he'll recommend me to an agent using his contacts and reputation.

    So who's right? The first writer, or my editor? In the end, you'll always get a few haters. What you gotta do is ignore them and carry on. If the hater is a stranger, walk away and avoid them. If the hater is a friend, then just don't share your writing with them or kindly tell them to be more sensitive or else keep their opinion to themselves. Look, if it doesn't HELP you, you don't have to stay to listen to it. There's a difference with taking on criticism that helps you and wasting your time with criticism that simply crushes you.
     
  11. Dave W.

    Dave W. New Member

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    I tend to over write. I do tend to catch myself when I do it.

    If I cat get away from it, I stop writing and read The Old Man and The Sea. It is tremendously simple writing and conveyed as such.
     
  12. Edlamp

    Edlamp New Member

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    I wouldn't take offence at all (it's so hard to succeed in writing that all writers need to be really challenged - you can find many professional writers, including great ones, who received scathing reviews at some point in their writing life).
    Often there's a fine line between writing that works and doesn't. I think it's to do with voice. Often you can see that someone can write but it doesn't quite seem natural. It is when it is natural, when the writing really flows, the writer has found their voice, that you get the sparks. I'm sure many professional writers started off, and then regress, into writing which is laboured, without a real voice.
    And it could be that your friend is completely wrong! But he's being honest, and that attitude is what you want than a friend who is scared to say what they think. Writing is hard, and you're only going to make it, i think, if you respond positively to criticism, learn from it, experiment, and so on.
    Good luck.
     
  13. Edlamp

    Edlamp New Member

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    And apologies for all the terrible grammar and punctuation in the last post (in a rush ..)
     
  14. Islander

    Islander Contributor Contributor

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    The fact that your friend is an English major doesn't automatically mean his criticism is relevant. Professional critics often have very different opinions of the same story. Some things are just a matter of taste. In addition, the point he made (about trying too hard to write well) sounds like something very subjective.

    So what I'm saying is, don't take the criticism too seriously unless you hear the same point from several different people.

    People have very different skills in giving criticism... both with regards to the advice they give and how they present it. I'm very lucky to have a friend who both makes good points, and presents them very tactfully (focusing on one or two things at a time that can be improved).
     
  15. michaelj

    michaelj Active Member

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    You must remember.. Some people will love your work and some people will hate it, being a friend doesn't change that.
     
  16. superpsycho

    superpsycho New Member

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    Sounds like he was being a good friend and giving you what I suspect you asked for, his honest opinion. Th problem was you were looking for approval and encouragement rather than an honest opinion. The things he listed are the most common issues with beginners. You're know working to improve your writing rather than continue as you were. Thank your friend most so called friends would just say something to avoid the truth and not read it at all. He put himself out there just as much you did by letting him read it.
     
  17. Pythonforger

    Pythonforger Carrier of Insanity

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    Suck it up and move on.

    It sounds cowboy-style tough, "take it like a man", but really, it's one of the foolproof ways to combat criticism. The first story I wrote here? I was eleven at the time. The reviews I got were very(overtly!) polite and basically said,"hahahahah you sux go home boi. either dat or joo shuld take liek 100000000 riting class lolo".

    Guess what I did? I sucked it up and wrote another story. The next story got better reviews; they only insulted three members of my family. ;)
     
  18. Apollo.

    Apollo. New Member

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    To be honest it sounds like he's jealous of your abilities.

    He may be skilled and qualified in English but as a critique he's obviously terrible. A good critic will empower you to restructure anything they see not in the ordinary of a great manuscript. Basically this is called "constructive criticism". If it effects you emotionally then the critique is not good at criticism, if it effects you by helping you to understand the problem so that you can fix or correct it, then that is great criticism.

    He sound jealous, get a professional opinion. Sign a waver or release in order to protect your work.
     
  19. afrodite7

    afrodite7 New Member

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    -I think the direction you're taking and the scene itself is very good.It is a bit wordy though as it distracts from the story and the characters and any other important points.However,there are some points in which it can be useful ,setting a particular dramatic mood or setting,just not for small things.Your writing style is not bad,I like it ,just tone it down a bit.

    Example:
    -An attractive and unemotional blonde-haired woman in a white lab coat was carefully and tensely examining a small baby boy with a flashlight in her left hand and a blunt prodding tool in the right. The room had become silent again except for the scientist’s steady breathing and the rhythmic beeping of health monitors. When she appeared to be confident with the information she’d gathered, she discarded the flashlight and tool and peeled off the latex gloves. Everything seemed to be going according to plan. --

    Could be Corrected as:An attractive and stoic woman with blond hair in a white lab coat was carefully examining a small baby boy. In her left hand she held a flashlight and a in her right,a blunt tool she used to examine the child. (Note:would be more helpful if you can tell what the tool is and what exactly she's doing with it). The room had become silent again except for beeping of health monitors(most of us wouldn't hear her breathing through the heart monitors unless she's breathless). Confident with the information she’d gathered, she discarded the flashlight and tool and peeled off the latex gloves. Everything seemed to be going according to plan.

    -The extra wording effects the pacing of the story and some readers may grow either bored or frustrated.And people like me who want the plot will skip to the main point and you don't want that.

    I hope I could be of assistance,good luck. :)
     
  20. JoePetchonka

    JoePetchonka New Member

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    This is one problem that all writers face. It's just arrogance, really. I suffer from the same syndrome! "My writing is otherworldly. Surely there is nothing that can be possibly wrong with it."

    That's your problem. Receiving a critique on your piece is perhaps the BEST way to judge your work. Anything you write will sound like a work of art, but how does it sound to somebody else? Your story may be lacking character development and a driving plot and you may not even know it.

    Don't feel bad if someone says your story isn't very good. Use their advice to make it better. Obviously, I wouldn't abandon your style just because a few people may not like it, but take their advice to heart the next time you're writing something.
     
  21. Thumpalumpacus

    Thumpalumpacus Alive in the Superunknown

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    It's overly rich for my tastes. I prefer spare writing and simple, declarative sentences most of the time. I can and do get florid on occasion, but adjectives bog down narrative in my view. I prefer building the environment with more subtlety. Here's what I would do:

    "Deafening", "reverberating", "-out", "and", "artificial", "dully", "cold", "hard", "of", "science", "but of course how could it be", and "and more specifically" are stricken for economy's sake. "Computer diodes", "chemical smelling", and "medical apparatus" are replaced with terms that either read easier or convey more information. A couple of additions are made to preserve the impression and retain proper grammar.

    "Emotion", "white", "and tensely", and "appeared to be" are stricken for economy. "Blunt prodding tool", "tool", and "discarded" are replaced with terms that seem more appropriate to the setting. "Her left" and "right" hands are replaced by "one" and "the other" to reduce mental clutter in the reader's head. "Confident" replaced by "satisfied", which seems more appropriate to me. "The room had become silent again" I would take out because it reads as if the room is the active subject. The edited passage:

    This reads tighter to me, and the diction, especially at the end of the first paragraph, now hammers home the impression of a cold, matter-of-fact setting.

    It's a very evocative setting you've crafted, and it has a strong visual element that is rich with possible descriptors which can be both very strong and very economical. Take advantage of that to lean out your description a little. :)
     
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  22. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    an excellent editing/paring-down job of a badly over-written piece, thumpy!... do you edit for a living?... if not, you should think of hiring yourself out...
     
  23. Thumpalumpacus

    Thumpalumpacus Alive in the Superunknown

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    Thanks, Maia. I don't edit professionally, I just remember how my Eng Comp prof would tear my stuff up. :eek:
     
  24. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    then your prof was many cuts above average and you've a great memory!
     
  25. Hettyblue

    Hettyblue Member

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    I am somewhat torn on this issue as I have sympathy for those who have difficulties with over written prose. Two of my favourite writers Vonnegut and Bukowski are very pared down and factual in their prose style but their skill is such that the reader is drawn in, less is more.

    However that is more a personal preference, it may well be helpful to take on board some of the very useful editorial advice above and strip out excessive adjectives but if you prefer more 'purple' prose it is fine as long as you have the skill to write. The amazing Gormenghast trilogy written by Mervyn Peake is full of the long descriptive passages building the world of Gormenghast and a cast of bizarre and grotesque characters all deserving of the fullest depiction.

    I have been inspired by this thread to go and strip out redundant adjectives from my recent writing - as I can never hope to emulate the mastery of descriptive prose shown by my heros I am going to adopt less is more as my writing motto (possibly tatooing it on my hands).

    Good luck and definitely get your work out to others, if possible people with a passion for the genre you are writing in.
     
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