I'd say it is indeed a bad western influence. Here in Serbia, and I guess in a large part of Balkan peninsula, people are known to be friendly and hospitable. Foreigners (westerners) are usually left in disbelief when they see how things work over here: people are spending a lot of time with their friends and relatives, there's always partying going on somewhere, there are tight and never-really-breaking ties with your parents and siblings - it is completely normal thing that someone having a family of his own is a regular guest at his parents house, along with his wife and kids etc. As I said before, there is no pressure to live in phases; yes, you are expected to get married and have kids some day, but no rush. But, I notice that under the western influence, things are slowly begining to change over here. People get more alienated and lonely, chasing rat race, but family and friends still have great value to us.
That's kinda sad but true, at least in England, I feel (the west is too broad for me to make a judgement). From the age of infancy children are already treated in a manner that encourages independence - but that I find a little too extreme. The emphasis on letting the child cry it out, that the child must be able to sleep in their own room without parental presence, and then as teenagers from the age of 12 you're expected to get a part-time job to fund your own leisures. Of course you still get pocket money, but it's kinda like, "If you wanna go to the cinema or buy a pair of shoes, use your own pocket money and if you don't have it, then too bad." Teenagers are expected to pay for their own driving lessons and exams without parental help. My friend's parents were already generous when they paid for half the cost of her oboe after she's spent several years simply renting one from school. My friends regularly told me how generous my parents were that they paid for every single driving lesson me and my sister had, as well as the exams. This, when they also gave pocket money (albeit less than the average British household) as well as the fact that they also allowed us to get part-time jobs if that's what we wanted. I'm not saying any of this - eg the British way of making the kid pay their own way - is bad - I can certainly see the good in it. But then these same kids grow into adults and is it such a surprise that they don't visit as often, that they don't consider living close to family as opposed to just living wherever the spouse or children want, that when it comes to familial decisions, you give your parents no space to influence your future? Their whole lives they've been encouraged, even made to be independent and make their own decisions, after all. Again that's not a bad thing to encourage in your child - but sometimes I think it's a little too much. Whereas my Czech husband visits his parents every week - admittedly we live on the next street so it's pretty easy to do so - but there's definitely a sense of, "They are my parents. I must see them." His cousin visits home once a month cus home for him is 3 hours by train away, and he tells me, "That's not often at all." By British standards that would be very often - but by Chinese standards, my mum is in agreement with this cousin. Mum tells me she used to visit her mother every week - and she had to take both buses and ferries across Hong Kong, which took about 2 hours, to do so, and travelling with both me and my sister when we were only little at that! Till now my parents and my husband's view of family is still much more compatible than with my sister's more English view. My husband says he would never emigrate across the globe because it would be too far from family - the only reason he is willing to move to England is for me, because he understands my need for my family, but otherwise he'd have stayed in Prague with his own. All this, just to be close together. This kinda thinking doesn't seem to be very prevalent in British culture. You see it even in student culture. The Brits can't wait to go to university in order to live independently, away from parents. The idea that you might actually wanna live at home while you studied and commute instead is almost unheard of, and extremely bizarre. The whole idea of uni is to get independence. Whereas the Czechs - they would go to the nearest good university to their hometown, and commute, and many would live at home. Those who choose to live away from home tend to still stay in the same hometown, but are expected to fund their own housing etc because it's also the norm to be working part- or full-time whilst you study. The Brits though would get parental support when living away from home and are generally not expected to work during term, though they tend to return to their part-time jobs during holidays. Anyway, once again - that idea of separating from your family is stronger in British culture than Czech, it seems. Being close to home simply isn't a factor at all in deciding which uni to go to for the average English student. I still remember there was a friend of ours who got married straight out of uni, and my mum, while she was happy for her of course, said, "I feel sorry for her parents - after all the love and work and money they've invested in their daughter, she doesn't even go home for a spell first. She just finished university and now she's leaving home right away. It's like they've lost a daughter." I still don't quite get that sorta thinking, because my own is more English than Chinese, but you can definitely see some cultural difference there. There was another time when my mum was feeling heartbroken over my sister, and mum said, "She's my own daughter and yet if I want to see her, I have to make appointments!" (my sister, like every English person, simply wants mum to plan it in advance and let them know beforehand, because otherwise my sister would make her own plans. I think mum might have been struggling with the idea that 1. my sister has her own life and 2. that spontaneous visits are unwelcomed in English culture - so a mixture of culture and just your usual parental struggle of letting their kids fly)
Smaller communities, liberation from families, moving long distance, and divorce, ultimately lead to estrangement. Family units are small, often just of 1. Of course we still pay our taxes and debts to the bank. So who are we living for now a days?
@Mckk You've presented some solid evidence, and I agree with you about many undeserved blessings you've been bestowed, but I will maintain that if one is determined hard enough, one shall find. And yes, by that I mean everything one needs. And yes, I utter these words while being crushed under the weight of the possibility that one day, I, too, might put them to the test of fire and ask...beg for food and shelter. " If you could make fate or God bring you a partner by virtue of wishing hard enough, then there wouldn't be so many lonely, single people out there..." Yes, I know we part here, but this is what I believe in. I believe in wishing hard enough. Hack, let me tell you, I'm still here partly thanks to this virtue. I hope your friend will find what she's looking for, I know the feeling. I'm also happy your mom and yourself have the blessing of a wonderful husband...
I can relate to this, having studied at uni in my home town; my parents weren't willing to pay for my studies elsewhere. I think the financial factor is very strong in this situation. A lot of my elementary and high school ex-classmates have stayed and studied in our home town university. But I can tell you, as sb who hadn't the chance to study at boarding school during their teen years, staying home in university years downright sucks. And by that I don't mean the lack of partying and ape-going. Simpy living my damned life. Truth be told, and thank God I successfully finished my studies but it was one of those commitnments you DO NOT enjoy right from the start.
Would you have liked to live away from home during uni if you could have? Was working not an option? Cus it seems to be the norm amongst Czechs to be working even through uni. I don't know how strict Czech parents are re giving financial support - if it's generally only expected that you can support yourself for the most part but your parents might help on small things from time to time, or if it's very strict like "that's too bad, cope without or come home"? Obviously I suppose that might differ from family to family but is there a general norm with this?
As you say, the general norm would be to move out and support oneself, if possible. The trouble was my parents feared I wouldn't finish my studies taking such a course. I was too young to defend my vague plans. If I could have studied elsewhere, I would have. Another thing is - yes, lots of Czech work on the side to studying, but let mi label it "studying", cos attending mandatory seminars and embarking on overnight cramming sessions a night before exam is a farcry from the honorable nature of what the word conveys.
Yeah, independence is also encouraged here in Finland. The attitude basically is, you are a loser if you still live with your folks after graduating from high school. You're a loser if you don't work alongside your university studies. I must say, here I conformed. I couldn't wait to get away, get my own money, own place. I was 18, and sure as hell haven't regretted that decision. Spontaneous visits are a big no-no. For the city folk, at least. Relatives are nice... When you see them once a year! I see my parents twice a year. But when you do meet... Like last Saturday I met with my brother and a bunch of cousins (my family is huge, and these were just my fathers' side cousins). Everyone had a great time. No fighting, just a good time. We were very anti-Finnish for that evening: loud, hugging, laughing, saying how fun it is to have a big family. Gathering evil stares from other people in the restaurant (it was this hipstery place in downtown Helsinki). Then we go back into our lives, living happily in our bubbles of independence, until next time.
@Hwaigon - I wonder now if it's a difference between classes. Obviously as a private English teacher, I tend to meet the English-speaking ones who are rather ambitious and studious - you don't pay 400kc per hour for English unless you cared at least a little bit. Other student-types I meet are not my students, but rather they're friends from church - international students here to study Medicine. So again, they're the studious types. 8am lectures when in England people complain about 9am lectures, and in Prague attendence is recorded so you have to go. Czech oral exams sound stressful and all heck and sometimes a bit unfair. Anyway, the people I meet tend to have travelled and tend to be well, upper-class basically, and my impression so far is this lot is in general quite hard-working. Even the small ones I teach who are *not* hard-working inevitably go on to Gymnasium - I thought that was the norm cus every kid I met always went for the exams or was already studying in one - and my gosh the number of tests they have per week!!! In England when I was the same age, we had exams once a year @KaTrian - Wow only twice a year? Is that the norm in Finland or is that just your family? I have no clue what the English norm is as I don't ask about these things, and these days most of my friends aren't even English anymore lol. Sounds like the pressure to be independent is even stronger than in the UK. We're the same in that you're seen as a loser if you're still living with your folks after graduation - if you're at least in full-time employment, then it's more or less ok, if unusual. But if you're not working and living with your folks, then oh deeeear... In Hong Kong though, the norm is to live with your parents until you get married. You see, here's where I think I don't fit so well in English culture - or Finnish it seems lol - I find that sort of independence bubble a little sad. From your descriptions, the relationships sound a bit shallow - like, there's a lot of fondness, and you'll surely help each other out in dire circumstances cus you're family - but you don't really know each other anymore, and if you were ever in need, I suppose you'd probably more likely turn to your friends than your family. Or maybe I'm making all the wrong assumptions?? Like, I'd never hesitate to ask for anything from my parents - but I can't imagine the same being the case if I only see them twice a year... For example I do not feel that sort of comfort with my relatives, because I've seen them something like 3-4 times in my entire life since I emigrated from Hong Kong - and I don't honestly care that much if I see them or not. So I guess that's the extreme end of the independence bubble - in my case it's gone further than independence but rather it's estrangement, really, and there's no comfort to be had there. Familial relationships in name and fact is simply not the same thing as an actual intimate relationship.
It's a bit of a norm, I guess. Among city folk, at least. I don't hesitate to ask for help from my parents or brother as such. They're family so they're obligated . But you're still right, while my relationship with my mom is not that shallow (she brought me up pretty much on her own, so we're close), it's a bit different with my dad and bro -- and not meeting so often plays a part in that. They're such proud manly men; don't talk about "deep stuff" and always showing only the good, successful side of themselves to the world. The level of knowing each other is not that deep, but I'm not sure if that's even necessary for people to get along and support one another. I prefer to have a couple of close friends whom I can maintain. It's exhausting to maintain a large group of friends or stay close to a horde of relatives.
Oh totally agree with the whole preferring to maintain a few close friends rather than a horde. I guess sometimes I think that I don't want my parents to pass away and only then for me to regret that I never bothered to get to know them. To find out too late I didn't know them at all, that if asked about my dad's favourite food, I wouldn't know the answer. If asked how mum might act in a certain situation, I wouldn't know. I just don't wanna come to the end and find I never spent enough time with them. How come your mum pretty much brought you up on her own? Are your parents still together?
True. It has to do with the fact that Prague is quite fast-living compared to the rest of the country. Competition is stronger in all areas, which motivates the majority. You may also be working with high achievers; I've never taken 400 CZk for for a private lesson but then again I don't live in Prague. I have to admit I've pondered moving there, so as to fully employ my linguistic skills but it's too big a city to my taste. Nothing in comparison with Hong Kong, sure, but still. You said you meet your friends from church. Are you a Christian?
Yeah I understand that Prague's huge for Czechs. Even the locals in Prague think Prague is too big, too busy, too polluted. At the weekends it's quiet as all heck and most of the cars are gone cus they've all gone to their cottages! I must say the Czechs have rather healthy recreational activities For me, Prague's small - in fact a Czech once said Prague's like a big village. It's about 30min to travel pretty much anywhere across Prague by tram and metro, which is not bad at all for a capital if you think about it. In London, even though you're in the same city, you have to make plans a week ahead with your friends and meet somewhere in the middle because travelling from one end of the city to the next is almost like going out of the city - it's so big. I was in London for a year and I felt so lost. Whereas Prague's nice - it's just small enough that you know where everything is, just big enough that it has all sorts of things, and by virtue of being the capital, it also has the benefits of being extremely international, and with many musicals, concerts, plays etc available. And really, on a sunny day when you're on the tram going across the river Vltava, it's gorgeous. When I see how beautiful it is, I sorta get this feeling like I'm really blessed. Of course the city alone wouldn't give me this feeling - a solid, good community and a good marriage is what really creates the feeling - but it's almost like the beauty of the city on a bright, gorgeous day sorta sums everything up, you know? For me, the rest of the country often feels very villagey to me. I haven't been to many places outside of Prague but I've made stops in Olomouc and Cesky Budejovice (I think that's the name?) on transit, and been to other small areas, oh and Cesky Krumlov of course. They always felt so... country. Like there's nothing there and it's barely a town. However, people in these areas tend to be a lot warmer than those in Prague - but I guess that's just how capitals are. People in London were also a lot colder than those in other parts of England. Yeah 400kc is about standard for private lessons these days from a native speaker of any language, although language schools have yet to catch up with private rates. Prague rates tend to be more expensive too I think than the rest of the country. A lot of Czechs still find that expensive though - but then I look at classes offered by Czechs such as singing and ceramics, led by a professional, and they only charge something like 200-300kc. Like I saw an arts and crafts workshop for 280kc - and it was for 3 hours with all materials included. Czech standards and a foreigner's standards appear to be quite different. Language schools tend to pay between 200-300kc per 60min and send you to all corners of Prague, with massive gaps between the lessons, and no consideration for the teacher whatsoever - in other words, crappy schedule on top of low pay. These days I avoid language schools. I think you'll be fine in Prague if you had a cottage and I suppose you'll visit home often like the rest of the Czechs. You're... Moravian I suppose? Have you been to Prague? And yep I'm a Christian - I go to an international church here
Yeah, that's true. It sometimes does cross my mind. And yeah, there's probably a reason why we phase our lives in a certain way. It creates a sense of fulfillment. You did it right, you lived to the fullest (at least on paper if nothing else), and you made something out of your life instead of just ended up drifting aimlessly. I'm not saying that's the way, but it is something one could think about when the end is nigh. Nah, divorced. But I have an awesome Mom, so no matter.
@Mckk The weekend-at-the-Cottage life style is deeply ingrained in our culture, mostly due to the Communist régime which prevented the people from travelling abroad. It's also a kind of escapist-fashion vestige that has survived from those days; those who did not agree with the régime found temporary refuge in the cabin in the woods or in a village. Yeah, I totally get it. When I was in London, the Prague hour-and-a-half time frame I was used to rose to four hours to get anywhere in London. Like you say, it's like commuting everywhere. True, given Prague is the capital, it has all the goods in one packaging while being relatively small. "And really, on a sunny day when you're on the tram going across the river Vltava, it's gorgeous. When I see how beautiful it is, I sorta get this feeling like I'm really blessed. Of course the city alone wouldn't give me this feeling - a solid, good community and a good marriage is what really creates the feeling - but it's almost like the beauty of the city on a bright, gorgeous day sorta sums everything up, you know?" I know exactly what you're talking about. Not long ago, me and my gf went to Prague and took the trip from the main station across Staroměstské Square and Charles Bridge. The sun had already set and all those street lamps and lights illuminated The National Theatre which mirrored in the Vltava river. The seagulls glided overhead. The whole scene was like a vivid dream, it was almost mystical. The rest of the country maintains the village nature, that much is true. I personally love it. That's cool Next Wednesday we'll be having a student service in English here in Olmouc Lookin' forward to it.
@KaTrian - I think that's true re what you say about living in phases. It's funny cus people always say, "Oh you don't wanna have lived your life and never partied and got drunk in your 20s and by the time you're 30 you're too old for it, so you should do XYZ cus you don't wanna miss out!" But that's the thing I've never really understood. Is experiencing such things really so important? People make it out like it's such a shame but it's like, what have you really missed out on? But then again I've never been into conformity and giving into social pressure much - in fact, I have almost no sense of social taboos lol. I guess what kinda experiences constitute 'living life to the full' is quite subjective really. I personally can't imagine living my whole life in one city, in one house, and never knowing all the cultures I know now and seeing life only through one set of lens. For me, that would be 'missing out'. But for someone else they don't see the value in such and would not consider the lack of it a loss. But then again, insight, understanding and appreciation of a culture is surely more fulfilling and valuable than the experience of drunken parties and hangovers? I mean, of course we all have different priorities in life, but a little like the idea of good and bad writing, surely there are elements of objectivity in what constitutes an actually valuable experience. Because if we had to compare, if we're honest, I'm not sure anyone would try to convince me it's more of a loss to not have been drunk than it is to not have lived/tasted other cultures. @Hwaigon - that's very interesting what you said about the cottage being an escape from the regime. I have never thought of it that way but you could well be right as to why it's such an important part of the culture. Wow 4 hours to commute within London? I think the longest I've experienced was an hour. Where were you going from/to!? Aah you're in Olomouc! Yeah the Czechs maintain a deep love for nature in general. Even my husband, who was born in Ostrava and moved to Prague when he was 8, he still prefers the villages. Here in Prague his favourite place is Roztyly, where there are the woods and he loves to walk through them. Well if you're ever in Prague again, we should go for a drink
If you'll have the privelage of actually having sorted the shit out, then still good for you. The saddest thing is when old man hasn't sorted his life out.
I see my parents almost every day (we live nearby). It's all very spontaneous over here. I've heard that in Japan the situation is similar - it is quite normal for them to see their parents once a year.
Wow almost everyday!? It's so interesting how vastly these things differ! Japan - I believe it is generally the norm, though that doesn't mean everyone follows it, that the oldest child lives with the parents. They tend to build 2 houses on a plot of land and the parents have one house, while the child and their family lives in the other. I don't remember now if there's any gender divide here - if it's always the oldest child or if it's the oldest son from whom this is expected. I think it's supposed to be the son, unless the parents have no sons, in which case the oldest daughter would take the responsibility. I do wonder what people do though if the wife is the oldest daughter of her family without any brothers, and her husband is the oldest or only son in his family. Given how sexist Japanese society is, I'd imagine the husband's parents might be favoured in this case... However, as always, just because it's in the culture and sometimes the parents obviously want doesn't mean children don't move away. My current Japanese friend tells me her older brother lives far away from their parents, and as such the parents would like her, their daughter, to come and live with them. While she wishes to return to Japan for the sake of her parents, she also seems set on going to Tokyo or nearby areas for work, which is on the other side of Japan from her parents. One Japanese custom I was unaware of till recently is that when a woman is pregnant, she goes home to her parents, and the husband is expected to travel to see his wife and later his child for a spell. Thinking about the Japanese lifestyle, where men work until anything between 9pm-midnight, that actually makes perfect sense. But I can't imagine wanting to be away from my husband at a time like that!
They live in Eastern Finland while I'm down in the south, so there's a bit of distance. Which I don't mind. I also don't have to worry about them moving here 'cause they dislike the Helsinki region (too big and noisy, crazy traffic etc.).
@Mckk My schedule is usually completely full when I'm in Prague but if I ever spend there more days I'll let you know
Ka Trian, I was in a similar situation as yours at your age and still am, and to be honest, I regret it a little , especially in regards to never seeing my sibling.
I am thrilled beyond words to see this discussion. For starters, I moved around a lot in my teens (texas, michigan, Florida, and back to Michigan) in a span of four years. Family issues. Along the way I made a lot of great friends, and lost a lot too. When high school ended I lost more, some to growing up, growing apart, or my growing lack of appreciation for drama. I don't deal with it well, life is too short to be wrapped up in animosity, for me anyways, and people who tried to stir the pot found themselves booted out of my life. For awhile i thought I was damaged goods, that I was incapable of making friends. That's so not the case. I've just decided that I won't take any stranger off the street and accommodate myself to them. If you're in my inner circle, in my life, I have the right to be choosy. Because that's just the kind of person I am, and I don't deserve less. I'm 26. I've been in a relationship (with another girl) for almost ten years. She's my highschool sweetheart. We both have nice cars, steady jobs, an adorable apartment we've shared for two years, and a slew of pets that we adore. Constantly I'm reminded by my peers that not only am I not married , I don't have kids (I don't think they realize how lesbians work), or a house with a with picket fence. I've wanted to be a mom since I was four. It's always been something I've seen for myself, in my future. But I still feel like I'm a KID. I don't want to tie myself down to that kind of lifetime commitment, I take parenthood very seriously. I'm not going to do it so I can get government assistance; schooling assistance, food stamps, medical coverage, section 8, a bigger tax return. I want a child in my life for entirely selfish reasons; I want to be a mom. A good mom. But I've got my whole life ahead of me. I don't need to conform to the "American ideal" to make my life what I want. I'll get there when I'm good and ready, and to hell with anyone's expectations. It's my life. And that's my two cents.
I actually just agreed to visit my brother more often 'cause I'm on aunt duty now . He only lives 20 min away in any case. So maybe that's a good thing after all. If you find the perfect donor(s), you can get pregnant at the same time. I actually saw one really adorable picture of a double-pregnant lesbian couple somewhere (on Facebook, maybe). I don't know if it's practical, but at least it was kind of awesome.
