Gay main character. Your thoughts and experiences?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by United, Nov 8, 2014.

  1. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I guess I'm not understanding why the parts of the story that aren't about romance or sexual attraction would need to be be affected by this at all, especially for non-POV characters. It's not as if you say, "OK, Joe's walking in to work on the first day after he got the big promotion. How would he act? Don't forget to take into account the fact that he likes to date thin short-haired blonde women." The second part would be irrelevant to the first.

    Edited to add: If I were writing a story about a gay man, the hard part for me would definitely be the "man" part, not the "gay" part.

    Edited again to add: And I'm not saying that being gay isn't part of a person's identity. But I doubt that it's part of one's identity in a predictable, it's-got-to-be-this-way, way. If my story were in any substantial way ABOUT being gay, yeah, I'd be pretty arrogant to attempt that with my level of non-knowledge. But that's different from having gay characters in my world.

    OK, I'm going to stop editing to add now.
     
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  2. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    I'm not very good at explaining what I mean (I think we all know that :) ) but what I mean is, well,,, OK, I was reading a book the other year and in this book the main character came across a bar tender. Now, she also came across countless other shop assistants/waiters/service providers etc but this particular bar tender (who, if I remember rightly said maybe four words) was specifically described as black whereas all the other incidental characters were not described as anything, they had been left to the reader's imagination - "the woman behind the counter scowled at me as the handed over my change" etc.

    So why single this person out at all for the colour of his skin? The character never occurs again and neither he or his skin colour has any effect on the story or the story's outcome. When I first read that section of the book, the first thing that came into my mind was 'and there's the obligatory black character ...' Up until that point, I'd never even questioned the lack of black/foreign characters.

    A while ago I was watching a film, not exactly a parody but a piss take film. A group of teens in a scary place hear a noise, they want to send one of the characters (a black man) to see what made the noise, his reply ... "I ain't going out there, the black dude always dies first"

    That's what I want to avoid.

    This is one of the reasons why I'm undecided whether to make my MC's paralegal, gay or not. At this point, his sexual orientation has no baring whatsoever on the story so I may just let the readers decide for themselves.
     
  3. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    My own feeling is that there has been a HUGE shift of outlook since I was a teenager, when nobody I knew ever admitted to being gay. However, once people began to come out as gay and become accepted, then more people did the same ...and now, I reckon everybody has family members and close friends who are gay. It's like any other prejudice. It disappears once people come face to face and get to know each other.

    I have every faith that by the time the newest generation are my age, gay-ness or non-gayness won't matter in any sphere except who you actually choose for your sexual partner. I know there are people who stubbornly cling to their prejudices, and religious leaders who encourage this kind of outlook, but they are now in the minority. Most folks, including many religious people, now accept there are many different gender orientations out there, and they all work just fine.
     
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  4. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Two different things here. 1. Homophobe. Misogynist. Terrorist. Communist. I don't like these words anymore. Too often they're used to shut down a conversation. Someone who feels slightly uncomfortable reading a story where the MC has a different sexuality than them, is very different from someone who feels an aggressive hatred. I don't think the two should be lumped together.

    2. I believe that a lot of stories are based around inserting oneself into a story. It's not hard to imagine that some straight readers will have more trouble identifying with a homosexual romance than a straight romance. It's not even about being uncomfortable. It's just that they can't identify, or don't want to try. Nothing homophobic here. Same reason why a man might not want to read a woman MC, and vice versa. They can't identify. No misogyny or misandry there that I can see.

    I brought up I Love You Phillip Morris because, as I already said, that was an honest movie that attempted to create a story centered around gays, that was not about gay rights. It was two gay men in a story, just like you'd normally see a straight man and a straight woman in a story. What's interesting is that, this was a very good movie with very good actors, and curiously, it received little publicity. More curious is, I can't think of any popular movies or tv shows that contain gay characters without containing them for either gay rights (Philadelphia) or as a cute prop (Will and Grace, My Best Friend's Wedding, etc.) It's telling of the true comfort level of many Americans, despite all the feel good activism you see. In short, unfortunately I do not expect a story centering around a gay romantic lead couple (even if the story is not romance) to be as commercially successful.
     
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  5. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Re. 1.

    Oh, well, if you don't like using the words that way, I guess we should all just stop using them! Alternatively, we could use the words, and just not shut down conversation?

    I mean, the 'slight discomfort' that someone may feel while reading about a gay character comes from somewhere, right? What would you call that source, if not homophobia? If there's another word for it, let me know, but otherwise, I think I'll keep using homophobia, because I think it's on the same spectrum of attitudes.

    Re. 2

    I'm not sure why we're jumping to romance again. The OP didn't say s/he was writing a romance, just a story with a gay MC and romantic elements.
     
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  6. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    All I'm saying, is that someone might not want to read that story and not be a homophobe. It's not that they are in any way repulsed by homosexual characters. It's just that, if the MC is a homosexual, they can't insert themselves into the character.
     
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  7. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Maybe the problem is that you're converting "homophobia" into "homophobe"? ie. I'm labelling the thought or reaction, you're labelling the whole person? Calling someone a homophobe is, I hope, a pretty serious insult. But saying that a certain reaction is homophobic doesn't seem nearly as insulting.

    So, I'm going to continue saying that being unable to identify with a gay character, just because the character is gay, is mildly homophobic. Just like being unable to identify with a black character, just because the character is black, would be mildly racist.

    Does exhibiting a mild case of homophobia in one area make someone into a homophobe? I wouldn't say so, no. But that doesn't mean that the one reaction isn't homophobic.
     
  8. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    OP: Don't overthink it. Write what you want and don't worry about what the hypothetical audience might think. There are other levels than sexual orientation that allow us to relate with fictional characters.

    Use more lube? :D
     
  9. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    That occurred to me, too!
     
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  10. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    That's fair but in your first post you did use the word homophobe.
     
  11. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Ah, I was young and foolish then!
     
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  12. thewordsmith

    thewordsmith Contributor Contributor

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    My first thought was that, unless this is an 'in your face' kind of factor, it should be a total non-issue. Then, when you noted that it was a YA novel, my second thought was that you are going to get a lot of push back from a LOT of people over it.
    In the final analysis, as with any other relationship in fiction, it really just depends on how you introduce the 'gay factor' and present it throughout. A little respect, all the way around, goes a long way.
     
  13. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Also, I can agree with this, but honestly, that suggests to me that a LOT of people are mildly homophobic, a LOT of people are mildly racist, a LOT of people are mildly sexist (both male and female). Lots of women I know prefer female MCs and lots of males I know prefer men MCs. How many big movies do we have starring minority actors? Also how many starring ugly actors? So yeah, there's a lot of stuff going on.
     
  14. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Yeah.

    I thought that was what you were getting at with your stuff about the Philip Morris movie?

    Lots of people ARE mildly racist, homophobic, and sexist. For sure.
     
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  15. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    I'm not sure you can equate slight discomfort with homophobia. As I mentioned earlier, I do have gay friends. I once spent hours supporting one (who I went to school with) when he got in a state over the fact that his parents couldn't accept his way of life. I also have another old school friend who's daughter is going through FTM transgender treatment at the moment which right now, he's been on testosterone for about eight months. I talk to him (over social networks) quite a lot and he answers all sorts of questions for me so there is no way I am homophobic but, would I read a book that features gay main characters? Probably not, especially if it was a romance because a) I would feel uncomfortable and b) it's just not my thing.

    I can almost equate it to some religions insofar as, you can practice whatever religion you want but do not come knocking on my door telling me I'm going to rot in hell on judgement day unless I follow your God.
     
  16. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Why would you feel uncomfortable reading a book that features gay characters?
     
  17. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    I honestly don't know.

    I think, maybe it's because I was brought up with parents who were teatotal and feared anything and everything that was different. My mother was the kind of woman who wouldn't go into a restaurant where black people were serving because she couldn't tell if they had washed their hands or not. She also wore gloves at the supermarket because of the germs on the trolley handle.

    We never had any foreign food whatsoever (I was 24 before I tried curry!) and so it wasn't until I grew up and became an independent person (I finally grew a pair and cut all contact 8/9 years ago, even though I've been married for 18 years and I'm now 41) that I began to experience the wider world.

    So in the grand scheme of things, I'm a newbie at this!
     
  18. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Yeah, okay, so it doesn't make you a bad person, but... I think being uncomfortable with reading something just because the characters are gay is a mild form of homophobia. It doesn't mean you don't have gay friends, doesn't mean you HATE gay people... but you're a bit uncomfortable with the idea, possibly because it's new to you.

    Not a big deal, but not a good thing, either. Right? I mean, nobody's perfect, we all have things to work on. To me, based on what I'm reading here... I think you could work on mild homophobia, at least in some situations.
     
  19. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Maybe. We'll see.

    But then, the same could be said for fantasy fiction. Lord of the Rings, talking trees, fairies and trolls living under bridges. Almost makes me want to laugh out loud at the absurdity of it all, I just cannot get into fantasy fiction! (I've promised an author friend I will give his first novel a go as he writes fantasy fiction) but I'm really not looking forward to it. Saying that though, I do like science fiction, go figure!

    So maybe fiction featuring gay main characters just get's pigeon-holed into the 'not for me' box along with fairies, cowboys and Indians books and anything by mills and boon.

    It's a preference rather than a phobia.
     
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  20. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    This ^

    Sometimes a book is a vicarious experience, sometimes it's more than that. I'm pretty sure "50 Shades" is not popular because people find the story intriguing. The same with the Twilight series.

    And it doesn't have to be sexual. Harry Potter and the LOTR are adventures one might read and feel a part of. But not every novel need draw the reader in as a participant. There was nothing about Dan Simmon's "Drood", for example, that I wanted to be part of, yet the story solidly held my attention. As did "Terror" (I'm on a Simmons roll).

    I want readers to be drawn in to my novel, but I also want the readers that aren't, yet still find the story appealing.
     
  21. Revanchist

    Revanchist Member

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    In most gay stories I have come across a few factors which obliterate the story line and "drive away" from what the writer is trying to say. The term gay, straight, bi etc. should not be mentioned at all in my opinion unless the topic really REALLY demands it. Much like when telling a story of straight characters, the focus is on their emotions and situations, not their sexuality. Personally it would be a lot more effective to trick someone into enjoying the idea of romance and then reveal the homosexual aspect as something quite ordinary. The problem is that many readers I have come across see the sign gay and connect it to something sexual or superficial that displays "cute and funny" scenes, simply because much of the gay population has decided that they like that aspect and most of them have represented it as a trademark of their community, which is sadly untrue and provokes stereotypes. I've thought of it myself and I came across that conflict. While I do understand what it is like to love, I am afraid people may misunderstand and judge prematurely. I think it would be fascinating to take that ability away from them. Can you imagine showing a really powerful display of romance and passion, and let the reader be pulled in, and then suddenly the main character says:" SURPRISE!" well, in a more polished and deeper way heh. That's my 2 cents. Oh here's another cent. Personally if I were to ever write a story with a gay setting, I would occasionally flip the characters in my head and see if the story would have a similar line of action if it was a straight setting, just to check if my objectivity is in tact. Does that make sense?

    For anyone who is interested in the deeper meaning of a story and truly want to read works that have a meaning on many levels, they will understand. Many readers judge a book by it's cover ( myself included, but I judge it before AND AFTER I have read the book)
     
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  22. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    The next step in social justice (besides of course all the important ones that the political machines want you to ignore) is in respecting people's rights to preference. If someone prefers to read novels with only Americans in it, yes, by definition you could call that person somewhat xenophobic, but not to the extent that it is a moral flaw, anymore than say, only eating at McDonalds is a moral flaw.
     
  23. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Slightly off at a tangent here but I hope you will get the similarities. There has just been a piece on the news about the current lack of black football managers. The black man being interviewed had a strong opinion about this and cited numbers saying there were more black football managers and players ten years ago than there are now and that the current league has started with no black managers at all.

    Has he ever stopped to think that at this moment in time, there are no black footballers who are either good enough to manager a team or even want to manage a team?????

    This is where we get the notion of the obligatory black person in a film or book, (at this point you can sub black for gay/Chinese/disabled person/whatever) because judging by the news item, there *should* be a black football manager to 'even out the playing field' whether they are good enough or not.

    If all the best football managers who currently have jobs happen to be white, why should that matter??
     
  24. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    This is a slightly different argument. Let's say you have a male engineer and a female engineer. The male engineer has slightly better credentials. I do not believe that the male engineer should necessarily get the job (and this coming from someone who often argues with feminists!). In some fields, it is very evident that certain demographics have a huge advantage, if only the fact that that demographic dominates the field. It can be unnerving to minorities, and is basically an unfair advantage for them. Therefore, it is good to encourage them to participate, if only by maybe occasionally accepting them over slightly better candidates that are not in the minority. How we define "slightly better" and how often this is done, is of course, left open for debate.
     
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  25. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    But it would be silly to employ someone based on their skin colour (or any attribute which puts them in a minority group) especially if there was someone else applying for the position who could do the job better.

    Let's take engineering as you did, but make it marine engineering. There's a position open and you have three applicants.

    First applicant, black woman, has a degree in electrical engineering, various other maths/science qualifications but wants to get into marine engineering.

    Second applicant is a man registered disabled because he only has one arm. He's a maths genius and has recently gained a degree in marine engineering.

    Third applicant, middle aged white man, spent time in the navy, good with numbers, degree in marine engineering, worked for a competitor of yours and could be a big boost to your company.

    Who do you give the job to? And why?
     

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