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  1. A.M.P.
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    A.M.P. People Buy My Books for the Bio Photo Supporter Contributor

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    Gay Marriage Means Less Procreation?

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by A.M.P., Apr 22, 2015.

    Article
    http://dailysignal.com/2015/04/17/forcing-states-to-recognize-gay-marriage-could-increase-number-of-abortions/

    So, all this really says, in direct correlation to gay marriage as far as I understood, is that women will feel less pressure to marry and have children than they did before same-sex marriage.

    What?

    Besides desire, family pressure, and normal social customs, women will be more likely to abort a child because of this sudden lack of pressure.

    I would understand if religious people might give up on the ideal, though I would argue they'd marry more than ever just to preserve their idea of marriage and simply ignore the legal state of what others do with their "marriage rights".

    As far as the article goes, I think it's mildly short-sighted. It treats women as breeding cattle (There's zero mention of how it will affect men wanting to marry and/or reproduce and their own pressure to do so) and simply lacks to show any theory on why this change would make women less likely to marry and have children (as you can have one without the other)

    Anyone have any real ideas on the potential consequences of same-sex marriage or more insight on this article?
     
  2. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I see you're giving them the benefit of the moral-justice-warrior doubt with the softened version of the actual message: "Forcing States to Recognize Gay Marriage Could Increase Number of Abortions."

    If that's not a blatant red flag the article is garbage, I don't know what would be.
     
  3. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    The premise has many problems (and it's taken from some amicus brief someone filed with SCOTUS). Here is the nutshell summary of their reasoning:

    "A reduction in the opposite-sex marriage rate means an increase in the percentage of women who are unmarried and who, according to all available data, have much higher abortion rates than married women. And based on past experience, institutionalizing same-sex marriage poses an enormous risk of reduced opposite-sex marriage rates."

    The very fact that they can't find data to support their premise seems problematic. If they actually have data from Spain and the Netherlands (of 5% and 36% respectively), then it would be very easy to test their premise by looking to see if there were corresponding rises in the abortion rates in those two countries. Since they don't provide data that there was, I'm guessing that there wasn't. They're just taking current data on the rate of abortions among unmarried women and extrapolating it, without basis it looks like to me, to try to demonstrate the legalizing gay marriage will result in nearly a million more abortions in the next generation.

    So they're taking a decreased same-sex marriage rate in one country, ignoring any change in abortion rate that may or may not have occurred there, then presuming the decreased marriage rate would also apply in the U.S., and that for every additional incidence of reduced same-sex marriage in the U.S., the current rate of unmarried abortions would apply. And yet there is no good logic that ties any of that together.
     
  4. Kingtype
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    Kingtype Always writing or thinking things XD Staff Role Play Moderator Contributor

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    Soooooo read the article but I'm kinda confused on the logic.

    I mean I'm sure men and women will always get together and birth rates will probably always fall and rise over the years just depending when. But if gay marriage was recognized it wouldn't only make two people in love very happy, wouldn't it also give more kids without homes a family for couples who decided adopt?

    I just don't really understand why people are so against it or well I do but its hard to comprehend to be against people sharing their love.

    I'm trying to think of it but I don't really see any like actual consequences of gay marriage being recognized, its a lot more of a positive I'd think.
     
  5. GingerCoffee
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    So exactly how does this occur? Less marriage available men if men marry men?:eek: Or maybe this smiley is more appropriate: :rofl:
     
  6. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    From what I've seen, one argument is that allowing same-sex marriage devalues marriage generally and therefore people are less likely to get married. Seems like a stretch. The article cites stats showing a lower incidence of traditional marriage once same-sex marriage was implemented in Spain and Holland, but even if those numbers are true you've got to figure that many other sociological factors are probably at work. The same old correlation =/= causation problem we see a lot in this kind of reporting.
     
  7. ChickenFreak
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    Anyone wanting to reduce abortions could make birth control cheaper and more available, increase employment protections for pregnant women, provide more income and housing support for pregnant women and for families with children, make childcare more available, and reduce the stigma of having children outside marriage.

    Inexplicably, many anti-abortion folks don't campaign for those things.

    Edited to add: I forgot about increasing paid maternity and paternity leave.
     
  8. Ankoku Teion
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    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    im in two minds about gay marriage, slightly conflicted. on the one hand the definition of marriage is something that is quite a big thing in christianity, one man and one woman etc.

    on the other hand marriage is meant to be the ultimate expression of love, and as a christian we are taught to accept people and their differences. moreover as you said it would provide more homes for fostering/adoption. to top it off the world is suffering with chronic over population, anything that passively and harmlessly reduces it is a good thing, the complete acceptance of homosexuality can help that, gay marraige can contribute to acceptance.

    thoughts?
     
  9. GingerCoffee
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    This is a myth. In the Bible marriage has included polygamy, sex with slaves, and arranged marriages. Legally in the US marriage laws have changed over the years.

    In some Christian churches currently they profess that one man one woman is something they believe in, and no one can say that isn't true. But to say it is a Christian tenet suggests something unchanging since the beginning of Christianity and consistent across all sects, neither of which is the case.

    Changes, including re-definitions, of marriages since before biblical times
     
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  10. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    Well since it takes a sperm and an egg to make a baby, I think the title is misleading. Yes a gay couple can adopt, but that is assuming a gay couple wants to adopt, and that doesn't change the fact that like hetero couples they are going to want infant babies still leaving the older orphans un-adopted. So yes gay marriage in a round about way means less procreation, Unless you can show me two women or two men that can make a baby on their own.
     
  11. GingerCoffee
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    How does marriage change that one way or the other? Are you suggesting if a gay person can't marry another gay person they are going to go out and marry a straight and have kids? :p


    Ted Cruz sounds like George Wallace, "segregation forever."
     
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  12. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    Maybe the answer is to set up a match making site that pairs lesbian couples with gay men couples where they can swap sperm and eggs for babies! Two women mean two babies, one for each couple. I just stumbled on a million dollar idea.
     
  13. Kingtype
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    Well

    I just want people to be happy, that's all really and gay marriage is something that can make people in love happy without hurting anybody else. And as people have pointed out even help others on occasion, it will make people smile.

    And smiles are great.

    All that one man and one woman stuff .....I just can't go along with, and I'd consider myself a Christian (more so then most anything else when it came to belief) but my heart personally just would never want to be against a shot at two people expressing their love.

    No matter the sexuality or gender.
     
  14. Ankoku Teion
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    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    true, taken as read, but did Jesus ever advocate that? or Paul? the old testament is (in my opinion) almost a history text book, it gives background and context, there are many important messages which we can take on board but we must bear in mind that it was written long before the enormous paradigm shift that brought us into being. much like a quantum physicist and pre-newtonian science if you get my meaning.

    the beginning of christianity was 2000 years ago, the beginning of the bible was long before that. hence why we are considered heretics by the jews. yes ideas of marriage changed between genisis and the new testament but that was judaism not christianity, most of mainstream christianity believes it.

    also, i didnt say it was a tenet of christianity, i said it was something that was very important to us, some branches of christianity may differ on their beliefs as mormonism did (but no longer does for a large part) but it is still important to them.

    the tenets, the core, of christianity are that 1)humans are sinful and imperfect. 2) Jesus is one of the trinity. 3)he died on the cross and rose again. 4) through him we are forgiven.

    just outside of that we have the 10 commandments and the golden rule by which we judge the correct course of action in any situation.
     
  15. Ankoku Teion
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    i more a less agree, one major thing that i would say would have me, if not allow then not condemn gay marriage is the teaching of jesus, "judge not lest you be judged" and "take the log from your own eye before you attempt to take the speck from your brothers eye". this to me suggests that as christians we are meant to correct ourselves and perhaps other christians but those who arent christians we should simply accept and (for want of a better word) tollerate. if that makes sense?
     
  16. Ankoku Teion
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    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    too bad you didnt get there first, i had the same idea on saturday.

    its ok. you can have it, i always hated business studies.
     
  17. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I can't have this debate with you because posting what I think pisses people off on this forum. But if you are interested in actual Jesus quotes in the New Testament that refute your assertion here, PM me.
     
  18. GingerCoffee
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    So don't get married to a same sex partner. Sharia Law is important to some people in this country. Does that mean we should all abide by their religious laws?

    Believe whatever you want to believe, just don't tell the rest of us we need to follow your religious commandments. It's not that complicated.
     
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  19. ChickenFreak
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    But it's not as if we're having a desperate under-population problem in the world. Less procreation would be a good, not a bad, thing.

    And two women or two men can make a baby "on their own" if "on their own" means that the baby wouldn't exist if they hadn't taken action. They can do it by (in the case of the men) hiring a surrogate or (in the case of the women) using donated sperm.

    The argument, however, is not about less procreation, it's a series of wildly illogical leaps arguing that gay marriage would lead to more abortions.
     
  20. Lewdog
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    That sounds like a slogan for gay marriage.

    "The world is overpopulated, vote for gay marriage!"
     
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  21. Void
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    Oh god no, not less procreation!

    With over seven billion humans and rising, we are basically extinct already.
     
  22. Jack Asher
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    By insects standards we might as well just die off now and get it over with.
     
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  23. Ankoku Teion
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    i wasnt, i was just discussing my own view. besides mathew 7:1-3: judge not lest you be judged, and mathew 7:5: take the log out of your own eye before taking the speck out of someone elses.

    as i have already said on this thread, i take these to mean that i should be accepting of other people regardless of their own circumstances and beliefs. i will never tell someone not to do something because its wrong, my beliefs are mine after all, not theirs. rather, if i was asked specifically, i would explain my beliefs.

    im just trying to have an interesting conversation.
     
  24. edamame
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    I took a look at that article and it doesn't seem to be saying women will be having less children. It seems to be saying unmarried women have more abortions and legalizing gay marriage will result in more single women and more abortions.

    The article doesn't cite where it gets its statistics and omits other possible reasons for marriage becoming less popular -- such as a bad economy, more people choosing later to marry, etc.

    This article from 2014 talks about why the marriage rate is declining and gay marriage isn't one of them.

    I'm pro-choice anyway, so this just seems like scapegoating a minority that certain conservatives don't like. If you don't want single women to abort, provide education, contraception, and help so they can support a child. Why bring gay marriage into it when the divorce rate is about 50% in the USA? Marriage is not a safety net.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2015
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  25. Shadowfax
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    The 10 commandments are Old Testament, Christ taught that "You must love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul. This is the first and great commandment, and the second is like unto it. Love thy neighbour as thyself."

    But to the OP, if the original figures are comparing Holland (a protestant country) with Spain (a catholic country) of course they're going to have differing rates of abortion, and differing rates of increases in rates of abortion.
     
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