Getting someone to give up a junk drawer...

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Wreybies, Jan 4, 2015.

  1. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    It is passive-aggressive behaviour. Preventing someone from using an area because it is full of your stuff; and the very fact that it is clearly a difficult issue to broach indicates quite strongly that this is passive-aggressive behaviour.

    It might be kitchen drawers full of crap; or as Chicken said, stuff all over the sofa preventing someone from sitting down; or the simple act of hoarding the remote so other people have to ask to change the TV channel; or insisting that certain things belong in certain places and that no-one else can interfere with their locations because life would be oh so terrible if they couldn't find their widget. This is all passive-aggressive behaviour.

    Personally I can live with most types of behaviour, but passive-aggressives I cannot abide, not even for short periods of time. I think it is the constant niggling provocation so that they can behave like the victim when the inevitable argument happens; frankly rather than have the argument I would prefer to just tell them to bugger off the moment they exhibit the behaviour.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2015
  2. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I have spoken to him about it several times over the years. Those are the failed attempts I mention in the OP. :( The quiet accusation of lack of respect on my part for his things that I feel in other parts of this thread is unfounded. I do respect that it's his stuff and that whether I pay the bills or not, it's his place, so hackles down everybody, if you please. My respect for these dynamics is the reason I have cooked around those dead drawers for 7+ years. He sees the logic of what I am saying when I bring it up. He does. But then something illogical within him erases the evidence of the logic I have put forth. It is that illogical thing I am trying to parse and work my way around.
     
  3. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Oh, I wasn't meaning you had a lack of respect. If you threw his stuff out without his consent, THAT would be the lack of respect I was discussing. I was exploring the idea, not raising hackles. Not mine, at least.
     
  4. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    That bit wasn't aimed at you. ;) That's why I said "other parts of this thread".
     
  5. Fitzroy Zeph

    Fitzroy Zeph Contributor Contributor

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    Here's what I read on the subject in good old Wikipedia. I focus on the word expected and expectations. I can't see how that can apply to this situation only because one person initiates those expectations, especially for a space that was occupied exactly as it sits even before that person arrived on the scene. You can call it all kinds of things: indolent, pack-ratish, selfish... but not passive aggressive. I doubt William set off building a situation into an unknown future with an unknown person just so he could take advantage of his passive aggressive personality.

    In psychology, passive-aggressive behavior is characterized by a habitual pattern of passive resistance to expected work requirements, opposition, stubbornness, and negativistic attitudes in response to requirements for normal performance levels expected of others. Most frequently it occurs in the workplace where resistance is exhibited by such indirect behaviors as procrastination, forgetfulness, and purposeful inefficiency, especially in reaction to demands by authority figures, but it can also occur in interpersonal contexts.[1]

    Another source characterizes passive-aggressive behavior as: "A personality trait marked by a pervasive pattern of negative attitudes and characterised by passive, sometimes obstructionist resistance to complying with expectations in interpersonal or occupational situations. Behaviors: Learned helplessness, procrastination, stubbornness, resentment, sullenness, or deliberate/repeated failure to accomplish requested tasks for which one is (often explicitly) responsible".
     
  6. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    What? Your quote just described this very behaviour.
     
  7. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    My mother doesn't really sit anywhere, she nests. Our sofa (growing up) was constantly covered in blankets, knitting projects, half read books, plates and cups of tea. And there was nothing passive aggressive about it.

    Having a lot of clutter is not an indication of a passive aggressive cold war and pretending that it is profoundly misunderstands the term.

    Edited to add: And I'm totally with @GingerCoffee on this one. Nothing that you have brought here in any way indicates hoarding. When your junk drawer has become a junk garage, with a junk basement, junk crawlspace, and at least 2 junk rooms you have started down the hoarding path.
     
  8. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    This is what I've done with T's junk (ba-dum-bum-CHING!):

    I start sorting the contents to sellable, would-be-gifts to people we don't really like, maybe-junk, and surefire junk. Then he takes a look at the piles and usually agrees with me because he doesn't care that much about stuff that isn't one of these three: flashlight, lighter, knife. I know by now pretty well what he uses or we use, so clearing out the clutter is more of a question of whether or not I have the energy to rake through that crap.

    Possible persuasion tactics:
    -if we sold all this, we could buy that thing you always wanted
    -could I ask you a favor, honey? It'd mean a lot to me if you emptied these drawers. Who knows what I'll come up with in return *wink*
    -we need space for that cool thing you always wanted. You know where it'd fit just perfectly?
    -if we empty this, we could put your guitar pedals/gun stuff/sports stuff here
    -I found a fungi farm/mice in these drawers. We're so getting rid of them and buying new ones!
    -I bought a huge surprise gift for you but I can't fit anywhere and you aren't supposed to see it before X-mas. Would it be okay if I cleaned up these drawers and put it there? Just promise me you won't go peekin'!

    The last resort:
    -Sell your house and buy a new one. Moving out also clears out clutter and junk.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2015
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  9. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

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    I am William. I keep stuff quite a while before I throw it out. I am messy. I have clothes everywhere. Our house is a mess right now and my husband is bitching about it. I need to do some serious clean up, and will when everyone else is out of the house, and I can really move everything into piles, rearrange, figure out what needs to be thrown out, given away, stored elsewhere, etc. Junk drawers can easily accumulate. So I totally get how this happens.

    That said, I do realize that these things can become a hinderance and in your case, it is interfering with the proper use of the kitchen. I would suggest having a discussion with him (and I know you said you already have). Suggest going down to two junk drawers. (Maybe later on, you can get down to one.) If he agrees in theory, give him a deadline. Tell him he needs to clean them out in two weeks or you will do it.

    Watching a couple episodes of Hoarders is always a good inspiration for me to clean/organize.
     
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  10. Fitzroy Zeph

    Fitzroy Zeph Contributor Contributor

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    A singular expectation from a SO that is not complied does not make for passive aggressive.
     
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  11. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I personally have 2 junk drawers but they're not untouchable - if someone would offer to organise it, I'd say be my guest and I'll just check after them when it's done to make sure they didn't throw out anything I genuinely want to keep. I must say I'm a bit of a collector. As a kid, I collected BB pellets, pound coins with different pictures, feathers, Sailor Moon cards, and marbles. I still have 5-7 boxes at my parents', the majority of which are papers, old stories I wrote, and lots of books I've never read but still think I'm gonna read lol.

    I hate to throw things out, but you can persuade me to throw it out because deep down I know I'll never touch that stuff again lol and it's just wasting space.

    Anyway, as for your condo situation - what I don't get is, why don't you just move out? Surely it can't be that hard to find someone where to live??
     
  12. plothog

    plothog Contributor Contributor

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    Plenty of people only clutter up spaces that they're not sharing with anyone. The only person they're inconveniencing is themselves.
    From what I've read there are a variety of psychological reasons someone might be hoarding. Most commonly it seems to be a form of OCD rather than some passive aggressive attempt to mark ones territory.
     
  13. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Put a (matched) pair of socks in the drawer, and a pen. When one of these items vanishes, some of the junk may be pulled into the wormhole with it. Repeat until the drawer itself is replaced by a mismatched empty drawer.
     
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  14. outsider

    outsider Contributor Contributor

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    Everyone has excess shit they have neither the need nor space for. It's a byproduct of consumerism. We consume.
    A thriving industry has been built on the back of this need to hoard.
    Vast expanses of long since redundant industrial space have been reborn as storage space.
    Got an old caravan, the interior of which you're probably never going to grace with your presence again? Bring it down.
    A piece of shit car sitting in your driveway that you will find the time to restore at some point?
    Store it here.

    Reasonable rates.

    wtf?

    People are paying other people to hoard their old shite. I've seen it.

    Just be thankful it's only a few drawers you've got to contend with.
     
  15. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    My dad throws things out all the time, and I don't blame him, because mum wants to keep EVERYTHING. She even wants to keep those tiny glasses you get from long flights. Every time we open a box she wants to keep everything in it, because it's still in such good condition that it'd be a waste to throw out. Problem is, it's in good condition precisely because no one's touched it for the past 10 years lol. Considering my parents have moved houses (across countries and cities) a whooping 9 times so far, dad's had to pack and unpack a LOT of junk and he just got tired of basically transporting junk across the country hahaha. So he basically throws things out without letting my mum know, because mum never knew these things existed in the first place - until you show her, and then she'd want to keep it :D

    However, there was once dad made the grave mistake of throwing out a pair of wooden carved elephants they got on their honeymoon from Thailand. He's never lived that down.
     
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  16. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I too am a collector. Part of how I put myself through uni was working at an antiques auction house. I collect and refurbish vintage fountain pens, lap desks, antique furniture, etc. I've recently started collecting science fiction paperbacks from the 1950's and 1960's and I've enjoyed learning the terms and lingo of that collecting community, learning how and where to get the most perfect "near mint" copies. This is part of why I'm not completely callous to the idea of having stuff. I get having stuff. I do. I don't get drawers full of ancient mail and bills and dead lightbulbs and random plastic oddities that look like they might have been the caps to some other object lost to time. My collections are neatly stored in my closet, in my bedroom, where they are out of the way, unless they are furniture items, which are used for their original purposes, as furniture, in my house. No red ribbons of "do not sit". My collection of collections is significant, but unobtrusive to the use of the house.
     
  17. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Lol I get you. You should totally write a story around one of those strange objects lost to time :D What's the weirdest object in the four junk drawers that you've come across?
     
  18. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    :confused: You think we care about your drawers? That assumption is not in evidence.

    Your responses suggest you came here for support of your position. My replies may not be doing that, but it's not because I support disordered drawers. I do care that people in the thread are calling every person with clutter a hoarder. That bothers me because clutter is merely on a continuum of behavior and hoarding is a specific mental illness.

    And let's look at the claim to see passive aggressive behavior. That's a stretch. There's no way anything posted about the situation gives us enough to make such a claim.
    Exactly.

    Just as I don't think this has been evidenced in the discussion either:

    Yes, there can be all sorts of underlying emotional issues going on here. But we can't tell what they are by what's been posted. If we address the goal of merging disparate people into a cohesive unit, rather than all the psychological underpinnings, it's more likely to help resolve the issue.

    My post is coming from the principles of counseling parents and dysfunctional families.

    One does not assume which member has the problem. And it's not about 'fairness' or who is or is not giving up more. I'm glad to hear you don't think paying the bills equates to entitlement. That's a bad way to look at things. The issue is about determining what is truly important and addressing those things, while recognizing what can be given up.

    There's nothing wrong with the compromise of a messy bedroom in exchange for a clutter-free kitchen. I think that is a legitimate compromise. But it may not be the best way to communicate and get results.

    So let's go back to my question: What is important?
    Is it infuriating because you can't find things you need?
    Because you don't have a place for things you need a place for?
    Because it's aesthetically bothersome?

    Are the things in the drawers kitchen things? Because if they are not, finding another place for them may be the answer.

    I like @KaTrian's idea, sort the stuff into piles, see what isn't needed or belongs someplace else.

    But if you want William to make a change, you need a better reason than you don't like looking at the clutter. Be more specific: you can't find things, you need room for [X]. Don't make it personal: you don't like his style.

    Or you can ignore me, what do I know about counseling families? :(
     
  19. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

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    Ginger makes some good points. From the outside, my behavior is the same as William's. But I have no way of knowing whether the way William thinks and feels about the mess/clutter/junk drawers is the same way I feel. I can say that when I do this sort of thing it has nothing to do with being passive/aggressive, or trying to exert my dominance or my control of the space, or anything at all to do with my husband. For me, it's mostly laziness. I do *prefer* a clean, organized home. I really do -- I love how it looks when it's clean and organized. I love being able to utilize all the drawers and spaces available. But I have a tendency to keep stuff, and it fills up drawers and shelves, and eventually I even forget what's in them, and they go unopened and essentially unused for long periods of time.

    When I do finally get around to cleaning them out, I kind of enjoy doing it. I usually find tons of stuff that I can throw out. So it's not a true hoarding thing, where people really don't want to give up stuff. And I like making the drawer useful and organized.

    So, it makes sense to approach this from a needs- based perspective. That is, the kitchen cannot be used to its full potential -- stuff needs to go where it makes sense for it to go. I suspect there's a good chance William would agree, based on Wrey's original post. If he doesn't agree, though, and there are other reasons why he needs to keep these junk drawers, then another approach may be needed.
     
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  20. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    When I commented on the lack of respect, I was in no way stating that was your case - only mine. You wanted to know why people felt territorial and I explained how it works for me.

    To my eye, the drawers don't bother William, so they aren't a priority for him. My brother didn't understand a lot of things I had set up until he started cooking and doing the dishes (he works at home, I work out). Suddenly things got a lot more understandable. So maybe the thing to do is "let" him do the cooking for a while.
     
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  21. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I'm not really arguing, but can I point out the number of times you said some version of "my space" in that last bit of the paragraph? Your closet, in your bedroom, in your house...

    Your partner had stuff stored in his closet in one of the bedrooms of HIS house, and you asked him to throw it out. Which he did, albeit apparently reluctantly.

    I'm wondering if this is sort of a clash between you having one and a half homes, and him having half a home?
     
  22. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I understand where this is coming from, I do, but he has a whole room at my house that I made his space, for him. When we're here we sleep together and it's our house, though it's in my name. But he has a place that is his, where he can do whatever he wants other than destroy the structure. If I've over-stated the my house vs. his house dynamic it's only because we do each have a house, but we are a long-standing couple. People in Puerto Rico do not so easily give up owned property to move in with someone, even when married. It's a peculiar dynamic that I am sure is shared with other places where decent housing is hard to come by. My across-the-street neighbor, Amada, has only recently come back to live in her house after 10 years living with her husband in "his house" (he passed away from a stroke). She never gave up her house, and here, she was never expected to. I know this only because I helped keep her tiny lawn in order.

    So, I get where you're coming from, but no, I did make wide accommodation on my side of things for him. I just didn't think 4 drawers were going to necessitate such a wide and deep disclosure of my life.
     
  23. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    Just wait until we get on to the cupboard under the sink...
     
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  24. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Ha! :-D Thank you for interjecting some levity. ;)
     
  25. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    In case you missed the forest for the trees:

    If you want William to make a change, you need an impersonal reason.
    Be specific: you can't find things, you need room for [X], etc.
    Don't make it personal such as you don't like something about him or his ways.
     

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