1. oterror

    oterror New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0

    Adverbs and adjectives?

    Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by oterror, Sep 13, 2010.

    I've read that adverbs make writing seem weak and childish. I can see that with all the "ly" words. However, I've read that adjectives do the same thing? Do you guys agree with that? should adjectives also be avoided whenever possible? does that make writing seem more professional?

    I recently read "The Murder of Roger Akroyd" and this book is LOADED with adverbs and everyone loves it including me. I did spot out the tons of adverbs but the story was still awesome..

    I'm confused, what do you guys think?
     
  2. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    23,826
    Likes Received:
    20,815
    Location:
    El Tembloroso Caribe
    This is a style question, and one we have worked over many a time here at the forum.

    This question can have only opinions as answers, so get ready for no two posts to agree, one with the next.

    If I had to cut to the quick, I would tell you that the two camps have this to say:

    No Adverbs Camp

    Adverbs don't allow you to really show the reader what you are describing. They tell the reader in one simple word that lacks color or imagination.

    We Love Adverbs Camp

    They exist. They have a place in the language! What do you mean, "Don't use them?" Poppycock!
     
  3. NyMichael20

    NyMichael20 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    New York City
    I always try to avoid adverbs personally. A few years ago I read "On Writing" by Stephen King and there is a whole section in it on avoiding adverbs. I do notice that when I write a first draft, I will use a lot of adverbs and then go back and replace them with actual actions during revisions. But hey, if it works for you do it. JK Rowling uses a ton of adverbs. Look how successful Harry Potter is.
    As for adjectives, I've never heard anything negative about them. They seem inevitable to me in any story of length.
     
  4. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    5,101
    Likes Received:
    3,203
    Location:
    Queens, NY
    I hate any verbs that weren't really verbs until someone took a noun and stuck "-ing" on the end of it. Like "interfacing". (shudder).
     
  5. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    36,161
    Likes Received:
    2,827
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    Your best choice for brightening your writing is good verb choice. A well-chosen verb can avoid the need for verb modifiers, including adverbs.

    You might think the same applies to ajectives and nouns, but noun choices are harder to come by. If you do have a choice of nouns, for instance hovel instead of hut or shed or house, by all means use it and eliminate adjectives like tiny or filthy. But more often you simply cannot avoid adjectives like wooden or concrete to describe a bridge.over a creek.

    Adverbs aren't poison, but they are the weakest language element for refining a description. Actions can be enriched not only be good verb choices, but also by context. Adjectives are stronger than adverbs, and what they convey can often not be conveyed by other means. Verb choice is the strongest, but requires better mastery of language.

    It should go without saying (but obviously needs saying anyway) that you should avoid redundant modifiers. You don't need to use frigid to refine a blast of wind in a blizzard, and you certainly don't need to throw in icy and bitterly cold as well. And yet, amateur writing is laden with such redundancies,
     
  6. Horizon Noise

    Horizon Noise New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'd say that the majority of adverbs you can remove or omit and your prose will be all the better for it. I can't recall having read anything peppered with adverbs, at least not for more than a page.
     
  7. HorusEye

    HorusEye Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,211
    Likes Received:
    48
    Location:
    Denmark
    I don't see how you could write anything with any kind of nuance, without using adjectives.

    If you wanna get rid of the adverb in the following sentence:

    "He put the spice into the soup, carefully."

    You could rewrite it as:

    "He put the spice into the soup with a gentle hand gesture."

    But then you have an adjective.

    If you wanna kill that too, you'd end up with something like:

    "He put the spice into the soup." or "He sprinkled the spice into the soup." but it doesn't really envoke the same imagery as with the adjective.

    Which is kinda lifeless, in my oppinion.
     
  8. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    36,161
    Likes Received:
    2,827
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    "One of the worst places to let fly with adverbs is in a dialogue tag," he said gruffly.

    It may look harmless enough in small doses, but if you make a habit of it, it is so intrusive it has its own name: Tom Swifting, after the popular series written for teen readers, infamous for such excesses.

    EDIT: He sprinkled a few grains of pepper onto the soup, and then a pinch of cumin. Perfect!
     
  9. Horizon Noise

    Horizon Noise New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    0
    He sprinkled spice into the soup.

    He dusted the soup with spice.

    He dropped a pinch of spice into the soup.

    He dropped a pinch of spice into the soup, taking care not to use too much.



    And so on.

    Adverbs, in the main, can be made redundant through good choices of vocabulary.
     
  10. HorusEye

    HorusEye Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,211
    Likes Received:
    48
    Location:
    Denmark


    Funny you wrote that just as I was editing my post to add it. What I also added is that I (personally) think it envokes less imagery in the mind as a reader.
     
  11. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,319
    Likes Received:
    97
    If the story works with adverbs in it leave em in, if it doesn't take them out. Decide when you read it over they have their place, sometimes if you want to 'tell' the reader then they work really well. Sometimes telling allows a better lead up to a scene than showing.
     
  12. HorusEye

    HorusEye Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,211
    Likes Received:
    48
    Location:
    Denmark
    What's the oppinion on adverbs in dialogue itself?
    Isn't peoples speech littered with them in real life?

    "Do you really wanna do this?"

    "That was totally awesome!"
     
  13. Peerie Pict

    Peerie Pict Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2009
    Messages:
    722
    Likes Received:
    29
    Location:
    Scotland
    Are you sure Stephen King was so vehement against adverbs? King may rail against them all he wants but I just picked up The Stand to see if he uses them himself and the first thing I came to was this sentence:

    "'Nope,' Lloyd said, giggling nervously. 'Not a thing.'"

    Not long after, there's a sentence that goes:

    "George was shaking his head wildly..."

    "He stared thoughtfully at..."

    "Lloyd hefted the bag nervously..."

    See a pattern?

    I'm not a fan of this type of literary elitism where the self appointed masters of writing make exactly the same mistakes they preach against.
     
  14. HorusEye

    HorusEye Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,211
    Likes Received:
    48
    Location:
    Denmark
    Did he ever say the rules applied to himself? Masters are above rules, you know. ;)
     
  15. Peerie Pict

    Peerie Pict Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2009
    Messages:
    722
    Likes Received:
    29
    Location:
    Scotland
    Does his hypocrisy not annoy you Horus?

    I think that it's wrong to impose arbitrary rules that inevitably stifle young writers. Most people will notice if there are too many adverbs in their writing. There shouldn't be such a song and dance about how bad they are.
     
  16. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2010
    Messages:
    10,742
    Likes Received:
    9,991
    Location:
    Near Sedro Woolley, Washington
    Taste and judgment, people. It's all about taste and judgment. I'm usually (adverb!) leading the charge of the Pro-Adverb Alliance Forces, but, like anything else, they can be overused. Adverbs, more than most kinds of words, can be especially (adverb!) easily (adverb!!) overused.

    A little salt makes the dish delicious. Too much salt makes the dish inedible, and makes the cook seem incompetent.
     
    1 person likes this.
  17. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    36,161
    Likes Received:
    2,827
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    I disagree. There are many such writing habits that novice writers never realize they are stuck in until it is pointed out them.
     
  18. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    7,851
    Likes Received:
    3,339
    Location:
    Boston
    I use adverbs more in dialogue than in the narrative. I don't like using many adverbs when I write. In most cases there are better ways to say the same thing (using a different verb or completely rewording). As for adjectives, I don't use that many in general, although this is strictly a personal preference.
     
  19. white

    white Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    1
    The only rule that applies to dialogue is that it sound natural.
     
  20. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,319
    Likes Received:
    97
    Not sure that is even a rule, I am not sure that reading natural dialogue always works sometimes a more cartoonlike approach works really well.
     
  21. white

    white Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    1
    Well I guess that depends on how you interpret 'natural dialgoue', because, to me, natural dialogue is dialogue that sounds like it comes from the character speaking it, so I really can't picture any circumstance where you wouldn't want the character to sound like himself.

    And it's not a rule. There aren't any rules in art.

    Except for that one.
     
  22. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,319
    Likes Received:
    97
    now that I agree with lol
     
  23. oterror

    oterror New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is what I was talking about. The dialogue tag. It seems to make your writing seem amateurish with the adverbs in them.
     
  24. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    5,101
    Likes Received:
    3,203
    Location:
    Queens, NY
    "Do as I say, not as I do."
     
  25. Horizon Noise

    Horizon Noise New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    0
    With great care, he added spice to the soup.

    Re Mr King: Stephen King doesn't actually say he doesn't use adverbs in 'On Writing', what he says is he tries to catch all he can; some slip through and some are intentional. Regardless, though, he's right, you should minimise their use.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice