Sort of missed my point didn’t you? Firearms being legal or not, there is still a chance someone could use lethal force against you. Instantly assuming that because guns are highly restricted you are safe is fool hardy. Look at where I live and work in the Bronx. It’s a mess and a half to get licenses to own firearms legally, to just have in your place of residence. Yet people are still shooting other people.
The problem is that there is no clear distinction between citizens and criminals, all the criminals at some point in their lives didn't have a record and therefore were able to acquire guns legally, also a lot of gun-related crimes are not planned robberies and murders, but impulsive killings. Of course in that kind of mental state you could kill with a knife also, but a gun is a lot harder to run away from. Not to mention these spree killers, who often appear completely normal outside but then go postal at some point. They mostly don't plan to survive their attacks and therefore won't mind being shot. There's no easy way nor the resources to distinguish between the sane and the insane when handing out gun permits. You seem to think all people who commit crimes with guns are rational people, who can be persuaded not to do it by appealing to their self-interest. Has any journalist or research ever actually tested if it is easier to get illegal or legal weapons? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm really curious. In the 2011 Norwegian massacre the perpetrator used legal weapons and said in his manifesto he chose to acquire legal guns after his attempts to buy illegal ones didn't succeed.
If everyone is armed with small arms, wouldn't that simply encourage criminals to use more powerful weaponry? I know it's a rather weak arguement but it's a possiblity i'd like you all to explore objectively. I also think we need to address that not all "criminals" can just pick up a telephone and order an illegal firearm, it's difficult, and costly. And why are we discussing break-ins into homes of the elderly, you aren't implying that we should arm them, when we don't even let half of them drive?
This was passed years ago. Best thing that ever happened here. I'm not going to bother with your so called statistics since your source is obviously very out of date. But don't forget that since it was years ago population has greatly increased so much so that we have serious housing shortages. This affects crime rates. I can't imagine living in a country with such out of control gun ownership and no respect for such a deadly weapon. The decrease in gun ownership was mostly affected by farmers and sports hunters. It was not a total banning of guns, but of AUTOMATIC guns which would allow any monster to gun down dozens of people in short order. The Massacre at Port Arthur prompted this move. NO ONE NEEDS AN AUTOMATIC WEAPON. Some of you gun nuts really are too stupid to be owning guns and this is why I'm glad they are restricted in this country. You couldn't pay me enough to go back to the US. Not if you lot are roaming around with a gun and an attitude of self entitlement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia Yeah, it's Wikipedia, but even this gets it more accurately than you and your source, Felipe. 1996 is hardly 12 months ago.
I just want to reiterate the warning I posted on the first page of this thread. I know that this is one of those topics that gets people's passions up, on both sides. That doesn't excuse anyone from the general rules of this forum; you are required to discuss with civility and respect. I've stopped this heading in a very dangerous direction once already. Please ensure that it doesn't start leaving the tracks again, so that you can all enjoy the discussion.
Back onto the topic at hand, the gun control debate has kicked off in the UK today, after a man who legally owned 6 firearms (despite apparent warnings to police that he was unstable) shot and killed three women and himself. Downing Street's response has been to underline that we have the toughest gun laws in the world, and (unwisely, in my opinion) rule out any look at whether they could be improved to prevent such an event happening again...
The problem there is it would be impossible to fully stop guns from being used, even if they were made out-and-out illegal. Guns, as I've said before, are easy to obtain here in the UK - and unless we lived in some kind of Orwellian state, some people are always going to carry them with the intention of illegal use. This is why I fully support the restrictions on firearms that we have now. Sure, it might not always work, but neither do people. In the end (and to quote the movie Shane): 'A gun is only as good or as bad as the man using it'. And yes. I own a gun, so I am a little biased in this respect. I fully recognize this.
I don't count as a source, but I'm American, and I can verify that places with many guns are safer. . . aside from bars.
Forcibly taking rights away from law-abiding citizens because of the actions of those who do not obey the law is irrational. Those who do not obey the law have already shown, by definition, that what it legal or illegal does not matter to them. It is true, however, that one of the easiest ways to get people to surrender their liberties is to scare them into it. That's what is at work with those who seek to outlaw guns. It is an time-tested and effective strategy, and it seems to me there are people in many countries who are utterly terrified at the prospect that their neighbor might own a gun.
And why are we discussing break-ins into homes of the elderly, you aren't implying that we should arm them, when we don't even let half of them drive? I'm not implying that we arm them, I'm just making a distinction between the mindset of people in different locales. In the city where I work, not many seniors arm themselves, they think the police will respond in time to protect them which just isn't so. We just had a 73 year old woman attacked in her home and smothered, her debit card was used a day or so later. Out in the country where i live, people know that the sheriff cannot and will not be able to respond in time so people, even seniors arm themselves. I'm not going to bother with your so called statistics since your source is obviously very out of date. But don't forget that since it was years ago population has greatly increased so much so that we have serious housing shortages. This affects crime rates. They aren't "my statistics", I received this in an email, googled it and it was verified. Granted, I didn't spend hours researching it but common sence tells me that when people are likely to be armed, as in my neighborhood, people think long and hard about kicking in a door. Snopes and Wikipedia aside, it did start a good debate. I seriously don't see how a housing shortage affects the crime rate as housing is abundant here and crime is out of control.
If this was true than America would be rampant with rocket launchers and grenades. It is extremely easy for people to get illegal guns.
Regardless if these statistics are old or not, they prove what I said in the last gun thread that got deleted. /highfive to myself. Though, of course, if anyone can find some current numbers that show the opposite; I will print out these words and eat them.
I used to live in a bad part of this city and several times a week there would be a knock on my door at night. It would be someone trying to sell stolen goods and guns were a big part of them. It is very easy to purchase a gun at a gun show or from an individual.
It is extremely easy for people to get illegal guns. How easy exactly? (@Jhunter) And are we still discussing gun laws in Australia? Or have we moved back to America?
So is the solution to treat all citizens as criminals, As you seem to suggest? The patriot act must seem so weak to you. i can say from experiance that illigal guns just like drugs can be had, for a price
I had someone try to sell me a “glock 10” last week. I almost laughed myself to death, when he told me it would not set of metal detectors. The things people will say to get a sale.
No, I'm not saying we should assume everyone is a criminal. Stop putting words in my mouth, the Patriot Act has nothing to do with this topic. I'm not an American and I don't see owning guns as a God-given natural right. I'd like to hear your method for distinguishing between potential criminals and law-abiding citizens. Would you argue drugs should be legalized because they can also be bought illegally? Or alcohol for teenagers? I don't really see why people need to have guns, except hunters, but even they have no need for full-automatic or even semi-automatic weapons with large magazines. I can't say anything from experience, but Anders Behring Breivik, who committed the 2011 massacre in Norway had travelled to the Czech Republic in order to purchase illegal guns but didn't succeed, so he acquired weapons legally instead. I'd like to see someone actually doing research on whether it's easier to get guns legally or illegally. I'm not advocating a complete ban on firearms, just pointing out the flaws in the current system and questioning why people feel they have to own weapons.
I'm not advocating a complete ban on firearms, just pointing out the flaws in the current system and questioning why people feel they have to own weapons. As I question why people feel that they have the right to keep a free man from owning one. Owning a firearm for personal protection, hunting or just target shooting is a right of any law abiding citizen. Still, there are those who feel they have the right to dictate what others can or cannot do. Pointing out one disturbed individual and what they did does not pertain to millions of responsible gun owners or their actions.
First of all, society is about people limiting the actions of other people, that's what laws are for. I almost understand someone wants to own a gun. What I don't get is that some people want to own a fully automatic weapon with high-capacity magazines. You don't need that for hunting, target shooting or even for personal protection. When you give citizens guns you're also arming all the potential criminals. If this is about freedom to do whatever one wants, isn't it weird these right-wing nuts also oppose voluntary euthanasia? A free man can't end his own life when in constant pain? Not saying you're one of those nuts, just to be clear. By the way, there are a lot more disturbed individuals out there and I'd feel less safe if all of them could buy guns. Yes it's possible they would buy them illegally but a lot of them don't have any connections to organized crime.
First of all, society is about people limiting the actions of other people, that's what laws are for. What? Limiting the actions of other people is what society is about? The people who commit the crimes don't care about laws, that does not give anyone the right to limit a law abiding citizens ownership of a firearm. What I don't get is that some people want to own a fully automatic weapon with high-capacity magazines. So let's also ban high performance automobiles. They go a lot faster, so they are more dangerous, right? Cell phones with text capability? Oh no, people text behind the wheel and kill others every day, so lets stop everyone from texting because some do it behind the wheel. Your right to swing your fist ends when it hits my nose.
Fully automatic weapons are already illegal in most States. So are certain kinds of ammunition. And the States where they are legal have very strict rules and regulations that make it harder for normal citizens to own them than criminals. Just like I said above: Criminals already have illegal weapons and ammunition that citizens are not allowed to own. You do not need organized crime connections to buy an illegal gun. Read Felipe and I's discussion above about how easy it is to get a gun.
Also, did you not read the original post? It proves all your fears get worse with a blanket ban on guns.
