Gun control results in Australia

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Felipe, Jan 1, 2012.

  1. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,218
    Likes Received:
    45
    Location:
    Southern California
    You can tell I understood your sarcasm by my cute little smiley faces.

    But seriously home-skillet. That list has more than "threaten" and "kill" in it. If you break it down it is at least these categories:

    -Killing
    -Self-defense
    -Threatening
    -Hunting
    -Sporting
    -Collecting (it is actually a use, no matter how ridiculous you may think it is)
    -Commerce and employment (meaning factories and the people working there)
    -International trade (literally means what it says; I am not understanding the confusion here)

    So while the list may not big as large as the author of that article is making it out to be. It is still definitely more than the two you are advocating.
     
  2. RusticOnion

    RusticOnion New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2011
    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    8
    If by intrenational trade you mean that guns help protect that?
    If so just make a catergory called protection and put threatening self defense commerce and trade all into one.

    I still think owning a gun for the sake of collecting is very strange, stick to stamps.

    And I'm pretty sure killing and hunting can be put together, the only difference is that you eat it after (hopefully)

    So that leaves protecting, killing, and collecting. So you've basically added one catergory... Oh, and sports which consists of aiming well... so two... I guess.
     
  3. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,218
    Likes Received:
    45
    Location:
    Southern California
    But see, your argument was not guns are only for shooting things.

    Your argument was that guns are only for killing.

    Which this list shows there are numerous ways guns are used for not killing things.

    And no, international trade means literally trading for other goods or services internationally.

    You also conveniently left out commerce and employment. Meaning all things to do with factories and gun companies. Including stock market options and jobs. Plus the boost it gives our economy.
     
  4. RusticOnion

    RusticOnion New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2011
    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    8
    Jhunter, there I had alot of points of debate on this forum, and no my arguement was that guns are for killing, not just people.

    But yes I do concede that you found a few decent examples, and amongst the petty insults and lazy referencing you have a point.

    Commerce and employment are important to any society, and despite the drawbacks of having a society so attatched to guns it can be for the better, I never denied that.

    But I think you need to admit that under all the sporting and hunting and money making that a guns main and only function is to kill, yes you can shoot targets, yes you can protect yourself and those you love, yes you can use them to boost an economy, but the bottom line is guns are designed to kill, that is there function, you can't deny that.

    The purpose of my arguing this with you is that it is different from a hammer of machete, be cause they have another main use they were designed for, so relating them to guns isn't exactly viable. That's the point I've been trying to make, justs aren't common household tools, they're not hammers or screw drivers or whatever, so stop relating them to eachother.
     
  5. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,218
    Likes Received:
    45
    Location:
    Southern California
    Um, that is what I said?

    So wait, you can use a condescending tone, sarcasm and petty insults in almost all of your posts--but I cant use them once joking around with smiley faces after you started it?

    No, but you completely ignored it every time that it was presented to you. Until now when you have no choice.

    I never denied that guns were made to kill. All I have been saying is that it is not it's only function. Which I have proven.

    I am fully aware that is what the discussion started as. But a tool is a tool. What was once made to be solely a weapon is now used in modern times for many different things. Just like a hammer was made to build things, but is now on the occasion used to murder and wound. A baseball bat was made for sporting; but is now predominantly used as a weapon and self-defense device in homes.

    Your argument about comparing it to other tools is moot. You really need to get out of you fear-mongering-narrow minded-bubble.

    Lastly, I hate to be that guy right now. Because I know you are better, and more intelligent than this. But you should really make use of the forums editor to fix your posts, if you are going to debate something in which you want people to take you seriously. Especially since English is your native tongue.
     
  6. RusticOnion

    RusticOnion New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2011
    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    8
    Replies in red (obviously)
     
  7. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,218
    Likes Received:
    45
    Location:
    Southern California
    I edited it literally two seconds after I posted it (because I knew it was wrong). You must have been quick on the draw with the reply button, haha.

    You never offended me--that is why I used smiley faces to show I was messing around. If you offended me I would have never accepted your friend request in the first place. :p

    Guns also have other intended purposes other than killing; I have already discussed those at lengths.

    This discussion can go on for an eternity. But I think we can at least agree on that it is all up to the person using whatever tool it is for good or bad.

    But obviously I said, "fear-mongering-narrow minded-bubble," in response to that post after you accused me of "petty insults and lazy referencing." So of course I was going to throw in a little jab. You know, eye-for-an-eye and all.
     
  8. RusticOnion

    RusticOnion New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2011
    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    8
    Lets just agree to disagree and bury the topic. Until Felipe starts another one...
     
  9. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    So what if guns are only for killing? What's your point? I don't get it. You mean that because guns are only made to shoot, and not for other, domestic purposes then they are bad? Consider the Axe alongside the Gun, both are used to kill, but also Axes cut wood, from which we can build housing and decoration. Both require a major use of force. Guns kill animals, so we can eat (unless you want to chase a rabbit around with an Axe, then I'll not try and stop you). A gun does have it's uses, and not just for killing other humans either. Many people like myself use guns to shoot paper targets as a hobby, a form of entertainment.

    Speaking only for myself I don't think the problem will fix itself. I don't think it can be 'fixed' - not with the human race as it is anyway. Which is why I say we need to account for this, and accept that we as a species are not brilliantly evolved. If you want to have some kind of authoritative government to remove all guns that would not make the problem go away. This is why I find the idea of outright banning guns to be irrational.

    The British government has had a great problem with guns and what is referred to as 'Gang Culture'. Though, to contradict my previous post, recent statistics suggest that the murder rate and gun crime is in fact decreasing with no major changes to the law. So, sorry. I made a mistake. I will admit that with the Olympics, and the slackening of the gun laws, have made it easier for Criminals to use Olympic-style firearms. But an uncomfortable number of Criminals are actually both very smart, and very resourceful. These people will get the guns they want, regardless.

    And about using a weapon in self defense: I think it should be about a use of reasonable force.
     
  10. arron89

    arron89 Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    2,442
    Likes Received:
    93
    Location:
    Auckland
    I still don't see the validity in the "criminals will get guns, so we should give everybody guns" argument unless the government also mandates extensive training and necessarily intrusive restrictions on storage and all recreational use. So ban or no-ban, I think there needs to be a massive degree of government intervention. A laissez-faire attitude to gun control will always cost more lives than it saves, just as a ban on guns will always reduce number of gun casualties, even if crime rises.
     
  11. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    Thanks for reducing my entire argument to a straw man, as that wasn't what I was saying.

    Besides, here in the UK we do have, in schools, lessons set aside for these things; teaching sessions and lessons are set aside for illegal drugs, so I would have no problem at all with another lesson set aside for Firearms. That actually happened in a first school I volunteered in, a lesson being set aside for firearms, but I'm not aware of this being a rule within British education. Besides, the culture around guns is so strong, even in this country, that most children know which end makes the loud noise before they are 10 years old. There does not need to be a 'massive degree of government intervention', just an awareness of the dangers and consequences; and that sentence reeks of Totalitarianism.

    I'm NOT suggesting a laissez-faire attitude to guns. I suspect you didn't read my previous post:

    What I fully support is a legal but restricted attitude to guns, which the UK already has. Criminals will get guns regardless, because an uncomfortable number of criminals are very smart and very resourceful. You just need to look at the gangs in Manchester and London to see this. Spoiling everything just because of criminals is irrational in my opinion.

    I did make a slight error in that quoted post, because the article about firearm offenses increasing is from the early 2000s, but in my last I also posted another article from 2011 suggesting gun crime has dropped. This is without any major change to the UK gun laws (the last major change was made in 1997 with the Firearms Act which pretty much banned all handguns aside from 'Blackpowder' guns, and the Violent Crime Reduction act of 2007 which just focused on the sale and distribution of replica firearms like Airsoft and BB guns, making it the law that they had to be immediately and observably different from the real thing) and in fact they have in recent years became more relaxed to accommodate for the Olympic games, and this is only temporary - as the government has admitted.
     
  12. Felipe

    Felipe Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    41
    Location:
    Texas!
    I won't bother to reply to each or any of these threads but will say this. There was a time when if I didn't shoot a rabbit at night, I didn't have lunch the next day, period. My father died when I was 12 and we were left destitute. We got $48.00 a month of social security as long as I was in school. Needless to say, this wouldn't even pay the utilities, even back then. I was raised dirt poor. As soon as I turned 17, I had to quit school and go to work. Then met a girl, fell in love and married her. We had a son so then it was my mother, my sister, my wife, newborn son and I all living on one small salary. I managed to put food on the table for them and juggle the bills, but I couldn't afford to buy lunch. After work, each and every day, I had to strap a spotlight on my head and hunt rabbits in the swamp behind our house. Some nights I shot 2 and got a night off. I'd then skin and clean the rabbit and cook it. I then had lunch for work the next day. I wanted to laugh when a yankee commented on how good I ate every day, I told him. "You should have been with me looking for it last night."

    He couldn't believe, "That in this day and age people still hunted for food."

    We still do, some of us. These days there is government assistance in the means of food stamps. Back then, there was not. Still, the cost of living is high and ammo is cheap. It may be hard to believe for those abroad, but a lot of people in my area put away enough meat during the winter to supplement their family all year. A feral hog can go over 300 pounds, that's a lot of free bacon and ham. That leaves money to spend on milk and other staples.

    I think a big part of this misunderstanding is people's frame of reference. America has had guns as a fundamental right for so long, we cannot fathom that right being taken away. It is promised in our constitution. It wasn't that long ago that strapping on a gun was as common as slipping a wallet into your pocket. Samuel Colt made all men equal in America, might no longer mean't right. Even a small man or woman needed no longer fear anyone else. The NRA's magazine list stories every month in which a homeowner defended their family from criminals that tried to break into their homes. One was a girl 14 who shot trap with their father, she killed two men who invaded their home with her shotgun. Guns are simply a part of life in America, that may be hard for someone else who doesn't live here to swallow.
     
  13. the1

    the1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2011
    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    That is exactly right and is the reason why I somewhat agree with your argument. However, you have to understand that other people from other parts of the world have never had that right. And they function perfectly fine without it.
     
  14. Felipe

    Felipe Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    41
    Location:
    Texas!
    It's akin to discussing illegal immigration with people from other countries that don't share a border with a third world, dirt poor country. Guns have been a part of American heritage and a birthright for so long now that it is unthinkable for a lot of us to imagine life otherwise. In Nevada, you may carry a loaded or unloaded firearm on your person without a permit so long as the firearm is fully exposed (known as "open carry"). An example of open carry is when a handgun is carried in an "outside the pants" hip holster. People think long and hard about robbing someone there.
     
  15. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,218
    Likes Received:
    45
    Location:
    Southern California

    I agree with all of this, and I saw it all first hand when I lived in Boise for seven years.

    Heck, I even hear of people in major cities going outside of their normal recreational hunting trips to get meat to supplement themselves. Times are tough in America right now.

    More and more people are hunting and gathering; which is good. Because that means they are eating organic and healthy. Instead of processed garbage. But that can be a thread all on its own; that is another one of America's major issues.

    I still do not see the validity is taking away guns from people who are not using them wrongfully.
     
  16. art

    art Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,153
    Likes Received:
    117
    I think the murder rate in the US is about 3-5times higher than pretty much every other first world nation. What do we think explains this?
     
  17. Felipe

    Felipe Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    41
    Location:
    Texas!
    From this thread, obviously gun toting rednecks like myself and honest citizens who have firearms.

    America was founded on guns, they won our freedom and tamed the west. Major and often minor disputes were settled with a gun. Then crack came along, gangs and democrats.
     
  18. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,218
    Likes Received:
    45
    Location:
    Southern California
    Good-ole-fashion American lowlife scum explains this. Unfortunately our country is plagued with them.

    But it is most certainly not law abiding citizens.

    Also, isn't America 3-5 times bigger than most countries?

    More people = more morons.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice