"Had had"

Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by essential life, Sep 1, 2009.

  1. CharlieVer

    CharlieVer Contributor Contributor

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    Okay. Very short.

    Had had had had. Had had had good had, but mostly, Had had had bad had. Had hadn't liked had, but had had, Had had. Then, one day, Had had had enough of had. But Had's brother Brad (a young lad, and a recent grad) had hoards of had, and had heaped his had on Had. Had said, "Hold the had. I've had had, and I've had had, but this had is very bad." So Brad said, "How about some spaghetti instead?" Then, having had no more had, Had had had happiness ever after.

    What do I win?

    Charlie
     
  2. arron89

    arron89 Banned

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    hehe reminds me of the 'Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo' thing
     
  3. shawsend

    shawsend Active Member

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    Well Charlie, you're better at it than me, but that's eight "hads" in one spot.

    Why not just say:

    Last month, Terra and her friends visited the amusement park. They went on all the rides and played the stands. They ate hot dogs, shared laughs, and had a wonderful time.


    Or are they too different?
     
  4. CharlieVer

    CharlieVer Contributor Contributor

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    Different verb tenses. In the context of a larger work, one might want to use past perfect at a particular point to denote action that preceded earlier action.

    If no one ever needed or wanted to use past perfect tense, I don't think our language would have that as an option, and I've never heard a rule that says, "Never use past perfect tense, ever, ever ever!"

    Eight "hads" in one spot...okay...and your point is? "Had" just happens to be part of the format of all past perfect verbs, so all that means is that I used eight past perfect verbs in a paragraph written in past perfect tense.

    The purpose of the past perfect tense is to show past action that happened prior to other past action. Perhaps my book is written in the simple past tense, and in this particular paragraph, a character is reflecting on something that happened even earlier. The "had" clarifies this as being earlier than the "current" past tense.

    Let me put that paragraph into some larger context. I can do this simply by adding a sentence at the beginning and end.

    Terra sat on the ride alone, eating her hot dog, reflecting. Last month, Terra had visited the same amusement park. She had gone on all the rides, had played all the stands. Her friends had come along. She had eaten hot dogs, had shared laughs with all her friends. She had had a wonderful time. But all her friends were gone.

    We clearly see Terra in the past (sat) sitting on the ride alone. She's reflecting on an earlier past, and then, return to the "present" past, where all her friends were gone. The reflection is denoted by the past perfect "had" verbs.

    Try that your way:

    Terra sat on the ride alone, eating her hot dog, reflecting. Last month, Terra and her friends visited the amusement park. They went on all the rides and played the stands. They ate hot dogs, shared laughs, and had a wonderful time. But all her friends were gone.

    The reflection to last month and the "current" past tense we're in are less clear.

    In the first example, my example, "But all her friends were gone" is clearly outside the "last month" reflection. In your example, that's harder to determine.

    Charlie
     
  5. DragonGrim

    DragonGrim New Member

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    Where it was, was at the top of the car I had had.
     
  6. shawsend

    shawsend Active Member

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    Ok Charlie. Point taken.

    Also guys, this is a headline in the news today:

    "Network Glass Ceiling Gives Way to 2 Female Anchors"

    That sounds awkward to me. But I understand they want to write it as short as possible. How about "Network Glass Ceiling Giving Way to Second Female Anchor?"
     
  7. CharlieVer

    CharlieVer Contributor Contributor

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    Hmmm...the meanings are different.

    The first suggests to me that the two female anchors came on at or around the same time, breaking the glass ceiling.

    The second suggests to me that the first female anchor came on earlier and didn't break the glass ceiling, but the second came on more recently and did.

    I see no problem with either, except using the numeral 2 instead of the written number Two.

    Edit:

    Actually, I do see room for improvement. I think the anchors should become the subject.

    "Two female anchors break network glass ceiling."

    Charlie
     
  8. Kas

    Kas New Member

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    That was a great explanation, charlie. I think this is the key point:
    The problem arises when past perfect isn't necessary. It is often misused in unpublished work, and I guess that's why it has become a pet peeve of mine. . . Shifting into past perfect for no particular reason just gives you a lot of "hads" that don't need to be there. I never even noticed the "had had" issue until I started reading and critiquing rough work.
     
  9. CharlieVer

    CharlieVer Contributor Contributor

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    I can't imagine just using past perfect for no reason.

    Then again, I don't read a lot of unpublished work...

    Charlie
     
  10. Kas

    Kas New Member

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    I've read submissions where the entire story is in past perfect.
     
  11. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    you guys obviously have too much time on your hands!
     
  12. CharlieVer

    CharlieVer Contributor Contributor

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    I had had time on my hands. ;)
     

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