So teachers purposefully under teach because they're underpaid and students don't learn because they're victims of a one-size-fits-all educational system. So despite the evidence to the contrary, looks like we have an excuse for everything and our younger generation is just held back by circumstances beyond their control. Unsurprisingly tired liberal victimhood mentality with a big steaming side of lack of personal responsibility. Sounds about right.
To be honest, teachers in poor communities like where I grew up really do under teach because they are not getting paid. My mom moved me to the disctrict next door simply because it is a wealthier community with people who actually care. In San Bernardino, the students don't care because education has not done anything for their families, so they fail. So the teachers eventually gave up because they weren't making progress. The district lost funding and now the teachers could care less about motivating students. They're getting minimal pay anyway. I'm not removing personal responsibility, but you cannot tell ME that poor pay does not affect teacher's attitudes, I've seen it first-hand. That mess happens. :/ "evidence to the contrary" is what I would like to see. You don't need to produce it, though, because I know first-hand that this stuff happens regardless of "evidence to the contrary." Our younger generation is held back because those with the power to do things don't act--youth who don't understand the value of knowledge, parents who don't make a stand to better their children's education, teachers who fail to motivate students to learn and advance, school boards who don't adjust their plans to meet changing needs, state officials who don't make education a priority, and the list goes on. We all have some accountability in this issue. The fact of the matter (and I use that phrase loosely) is that there are flaws in the educational system, and the most and upsetting issue with the response is that we get people looking to point the finger rather than solve the problem. And maybe worse is that when we suddenly reach an impass of different paradigms for viewing the problem, it becomes a liberal vs. conservative issue. Please! It is bigger than that. Anyone who cries "liberal!" or "conservative!" needs to get OUT of that competition-based, right vs. wrong, political delusion and start focusing on the issue at hand: our youth suffering because everyone thinks they know what's best, but no one is willing to take responsibility when systems stop working. IMHO The good old fashion way of teaching is not going to work anymore. it's time we started trying to teach according to how students learn, not try to make everyone learn the way we like to teach. edit to add: sorry if that's sharp, no disrespect intended.
I don't know how much some of you guys know about the new educational laws, but there are standards that schools have to reach or they go into a penalty system with the Federal Government. If they do not improve over a given period of time, the government actually takes over the school and teachers are put into a system where they can lose their jobs based on the performance of their students.
Not to argue with you, I do think its a good start. But I think a better solution can be found than implementing that kind of standardized "test" for the schools. Granted it is a good one, but fear is a bad motivator and it makes things about numbers and stats and quotas. I don't have an alternative, but with more thought I'm sure an alternative, or a supplement even, to these laws could be found. But maybe I've just got my head in the clouds again.
The fact is that students living in poorer neighborhoods have to deal with fewer school programs, smaller libraries, and teachers who may not even be qualified to teach. There is overwhelming evidence that kids from higher income families do much better in school, so yes, kids are being held back because of circumstances beyond their control. Also, students learn at different speeds using different methods. While I acknowledge that having different lesson plans for each student is impractical, I think there's a lot of room for improvement in our current system.
They get plenty of chances to clean up their act, but I've seen it happen here in Kentucky quite a lot. Believe it or not, the poor areas are the ones that get the most government funding for schools. It's just a matter of the local governments applying for it and using it correctly. You wouldn't believe how nice some of the schools are down here, with some of the newest technologies, yet students can't read, write, or do math at their education level. It's quite sad. Part of the problem is, so many families don't even care how well their kids do in school, because they expect them to graduate, or quit school when they are able to, and come home and help on the farm or get a job and help the family, instead of going to college. It's a whole different world here.
Let me expand on this. How about class size, low paid teachers who have second jobs, parents who have the luxury of free time to volunteer at the school? My son went to grade school in Medina (Bill Gate's neighborhood). The PTA (now called the PTSA) silent auction fundraiser brought in over $100K. Anyone who is familiar with PTA fundraisers will recognize how income discrepant that is from a standard PTA fundraiser. That's inconsistent with the fact public schools get the largest proportion of money from local property taxes. Perhaps you are looking at federal subsidies which are doled out relative to number of students rather than total school funds?
Studies and plain old experience has shown that money does not increase test scores, no matter how much you throw at it. I don't remember the exact number, but the amount of money spent per-student has increased like 350% over the past 50 years, and test scores haven't increased accordingly. It's not a money issue. This whole concept of 'learning disabilities' is bogus. It's just as bogus as the over-diagnosed ADD/ADHD garbage. It's just people making more excuses for people not being what they could be. Our deficiencies in our intelligence is just a symptom of the moral rot in our society. From parents to teachers to media to politicians our country is doing nothing but talking about how wonderful the emperor's clothes are.
I brought up learning disabilities only as an example of what can happen to intelligent students who cannot learn via the cookie cutter methods employed. And no number of deflections to the "political left" is going to change the fact that data, no matter how factual in and of itself, can be skewed and interpreted based on what people's agenda is. Which is why I asked for facts on the studies themselves. And you're still confusing intelligence and academic prowess.
@Lewdog Yeah, you're right, that goes back one of the things I said to JJ. Too many students don't recognize the value of the education because many of them will never use it. Too many parents don't push their students to succeed or get involved with the schools to make them better, too many officials misappropriating funds... It's not just about the money, it's about the attitudes. We are coming at it from the wrong angle. School systems need do need more money, but the first priority for that money is not to line people's pockets, but to revamp programs, invest in books and computers and resources and qualified teachers, to make structural changes that make education more diverse and beneficial. @JJ_Maxx Aren't you Mr. Holier-than-Thou... you're right it isn't a matter of how much money to give, but to say it's not about the money is a narrow-minded viewpoint. Not to say YOU, yourself are narrow-minded, but your statement is, imo. Learning disabilities don't necessarily exist, but it is undeniable that not everyone learns in the same old-school, standardized way, especially now. I've met students who couldn't focus enough to sit down and crack open a book and understand it enough for the tests. But some of those same students could master it through discussion and back and forth engagement between them and classmates and their professors. I've also seen it the other way around. People who just can't sit still in class or can't stay wake through lectures, but give them a book or some research assignment and they can come back and teach the class for a day. I don't need stats to try and disprove what I've seen with my eyes. ADD and ADHD are very real. Are they excuses for students to be overly medicated or given exceptions on poor behavior or poor performance in school? Absolutely not. For students with any type of attention disorder it is the responsibility of the Parents to help their child work through it and find a way to focus and be their absolute best. Remedial classes are a bit of a joke. No educational system should implement a standardized system for students with learning disabilities. There should be groups of some kind in which students with similar issues can get help they need to learn. some students take longer learning how to read or how to write, and there is nothing wrong with them. Do they still have to learn? YES! But why should we try to force them to learn more slowly through a process that isn't working for them. The Parents should be stepping in more to take responsibility for their children's education.
If your employer made it clear that you were not valued, by failing to pay you decently and to fund your workplace appropriately, would you stick around? Would you work overtime? Would you eat and breathe your work? Some teachers still do. But *expecting*, of all teachers, it is simply unrealistic. If pay has nothing to do with performance, let's start paying corporate executives precisely the same amount that we pay teachers. At what time in those fifty years was teaching a highly desirable, well-paid job with good career opportunities, a job that young adults aspired to, chose their major around, and fiercely competed with one another to win? Until that happens, it's not going to get better.
I'm sorry but I have to say this whole idea of teachers not giving it their best because of pay is a fallacy. People who become teachers know beforehand they aren't going into a profession that is going to make them rich. They often choose their career path because they want to give back to their community, or they want to make a change in the future. Their reward isn't cashing their check each week, it's watching kids grow and learn from the things they teach them.
Right now, actually, I'm studying to become a teacher and I'm surprised at how many others want to teach. It may not be high-paying, but the competition is certainly rising a bit, especially in the English field. I'd teach Math or Science if I were better at it, but I'm good with English and Working up the ladder in French so We'll see what happens.
Now you're speaking in idealistic terms . I'll tell you, just like I told JJ, I have watched it happen at schools I've gone to, schools in my own neighborhood. You can sit back and call it a fallacy all day long, but that does not change the fact that it happens. Whether it makes sense considering the reason most people become teacher, I have seen teachers who are doing it just because they qualify and need another paycheck (i.e. thy don't really care). And I've seen teachers give up. They aren't making much. Their students don't care. Care to tell me why even my mom's college professors don't show up some days??? Nah, I'm not going to go there though... Your statement, Sir is a fallacy. Why? Because what you claim doesn't happen for the reaons given IS happening and FOR that reason. Just some FYI.
Teacher's low pay = brain dead students, untrue, In Ireland teachers get paid minimum €35 per hour, $52 perhaps? And our kids are as stupid as yours. Blame the curriculum and what they want kids to be - stupid! Taking a recent US National holiday for instance - how many kids think Thanksgiving is about how pilgrims and Indians broke bread and ate together and played Monopoly and Cluedo till the early hours... Yeah right, they don't mention how the pilgrims raped and pillaged and murdered the natives. This is not a thread-jacking exercise, just an example of how somebody somewhere decides what and what-not kids should learn. How somebody somewhere decides people should watch Big Brother instead of the History Channel and how somebody somewhere decides the World Series is decided by just one country's participation - it's all crap until they teach the art of learning!
That's not entirely true. You'd be surprised at the number of people who choose teaching simply because their degree in history or art or whatever couldn't get them any other job. There's a shortage of teachers in the US right now, so people who may not be qualified to teach are being recruited. The US Department of Education even has a page showing you teacher shortage areas. So some students don't have learning disabilities? Is that what you're saying? I agree that it can be falsely diagnosed in some cases, but blame lazy and/or incompetent health care professionals for that. However, these disorders are certainly not garbage.
There are always exceptions to the rule. Have you ever seen the movie Stand and Deliver? It's based on a true story. Do you know who Jon Kitna is? He was a quarterback in the NFL that went back to teach math at the same poor inner-city school he went to. Fact is, people KNOW before becoming a teacher, they aren't going to make a lot of money. They know their reward is going to be in what they teach the children. Yet as you mentioned, more and more people are still going to school to be teachers. So yes, using a paycheck as the driving factor in how hard a teacher tries is a fallacy.
Maybe Thanksgiving is a day, regardless of your religious alignment, to contemplate all the things in your life you don't always fully appreciate. Talk all you want about Pilgrims and Native Americans and the rapine of indigenous population, but is that really the point? Sheesh. As for teachers getting discouraged with poorly-performing students, and with subsisting on absurdly low salaries, not to mention having to supplement teaching materials out of pocket, and having to kowtow to legislated goals aimed more at passing a standardized test than acyual education - any theory needs to acknowledge those facts, rather than discard the ones that don't fit the theoretical model. It's a wonder how many true educators stick with it under those conditions. One might have to assume they are devoted to the calling.
I'm really enjoying reading through this discussion. I'd like to summarize what I've seen so far. What I'm getting from everyone is a dissatisfaction with HOW schools are organized and taught. Teachers (interested in their career or not) are not sufficiently appreciated and thus underpaid. Simultaneously, they are underpaid because funding for schools is always a struggle, with the most-needed receiving the least help due to punitive government programs, inappropriate judging standards, and lack of community support (low property taxes, lacking PTA support in most cases). Still, money isn't the solver of money's issues. I see a focus on the attitudes of students and teachers is just as important. We assume teachers are interested in their fields since they choose to pursue what's known to be a job which doesn't make millionaires (and I've seen this to be true), but the long-term wear of working in an un-supportive and disappointing system put our children's daily adult leaders at risk for apathy, lack of focus, and seeking a better paycheck rather than the best-interest of students. We're also claiming students are neither applying themselves sufficiently nor being encouraged by their parents, teachers, and peers to seek education. This seems due to a focus on learning deficiencies and not giving needed freedom to the different ways students learn best. The industrial-style education system focuses on pushing students through tests and getting the best scores possible, rather than inspiring the quest for knowledge and understanding which makes lifelong learners. @Andrae Smith Do you know of any "groups of some kind" which allow for students to learn in their own fashion? I know in my high school experience the English teachers were very big fans of splitting us up into group discussions of literature/vocabulary, which seemed to help many students learn the material better and become more excited about it. @ChickenFreak I agree teachers are undervalued and see how the feeling of an apathetic work environment can degrade their quality of work. Still, many people spend their lives in charity organizations (Red Cross, Habitat for Humanity, Peace Corps--I don't know exact numbers so might have the wrong idea about one or the other) which likely pay no better, and yet I always hear wonderful stories of lives well lived in these kinds of organizations. As for executives, I know of CEOs in Asian countries who work among their employees, eat in the food courts, and rarely make more than three times the average salary of their company. Would you disagree there is an over-attachment in Western culture to money as the source of quality? @JJ_Maxx You've made a lot of claims about the issues our society faces on multiple levels, but you still haven't presented much beyond your opinions of the topics. I'm really curious to see some sources about the effects of ADD/ADHD (I'm personally a skeptic about how often these seem to be diagnosed).
I thought Thanksgiving was just a date to let people know it was time to start shopping for Christmas.
I heard something on State Radio about teaching in Finland, where the students seem to do very well. They put more into teaching as a profession there, and the teachers are paid better than ours (which we need to fix), but apparently, the salaries aren't as high as one might think and the commentator said teaching pay didn't rank highly as reasons for the better education. Instead, it was more of the approach to teaching and learning. I've seen similar things in the U.S. There's a good private school in Missouri where the kids have a great success rate and teachers have taken pay cuts to go there from the public system, because they have complete control over the curriculum and deal with less red tape &c than in the public system. They feel more valued there as well.
@erebh You do raise a good point that money does not make the education. I'm in 100% agrement there. More money will not solve the problem alone. I mentioned above that the attitude surrounding education (i.e. how we spend money, how we teach, what we teach, how much we involve the communities, etc.) is what needs to be fixed. Schools need money to enhance programs not line pockets. I just happen to think teachers should be paid a bit more as a bit of incentive, and those who are more qualified (via degree and/or experience) should make even more like other jobs. It isn't about the money of course, but we can't deny that money talks. @Lewdog I'll say it again, your logic is flawed. Of course there are exceptions, but how can you presume to know what anyone knows or is thinking going in. How can you say TO ME that money does not affecting a teacher's mindset, when I've told you how I've seen it first-hand? And it happens in more than enough places to be more than just an exception. Have you ever heard a teacher say "They don't pay me enough for this," and actually mean it? I have. But call it what you will. What you say is fallacy is occurring whether it makes sense in your worldview or not. @Cynglen You really get the discussion! Kudos for following along. I like your considerations as well as the questions you've raised. You're right, we have made a lot of assumptions in this thread. Let me clarify my posts by saying that I don't mean all the levels are flawed. I don't mean to imply all students are unmotivated and all parents are letting their kids fail, or any extreme like that, but in fact that each of the levels I've mentioned has room for flaws. There are some students who don't care, some parents who don't push, some teachers who don't motivate, some boards that don't plan, etc. It's clear that money will not solve the problems alone. In fact, one problem is that we think money will solve it. Money is like a band aid if we let it be. Or we can use it to start making some changes. As for smaller groups I don't know of any. However instead of lumping all students into remedial classes with a joke of a curriculum won't help. Say all of the students with ADD/ADHD and were set to be placed in some remedial class were instead allocated to a class with a specialist in ADD/ADHD? They're needs would be different from someone who is simply slow at processing information. Ya feel me?
