I suspect, though, that teachers would have more time for their work if they weren't going out to buy the school supplies that the school doesn't provide, and especially if they weren't working second jobs to make ends meet. That they'd find it a lot easier to teach if they had a textbook for every child, if that textbook were relatively current, if the school didn't regularly run out of copier paper, and so on. Yes, a modest but livable salary for a job where you're fully supported by adequate supplies and facilities is workable--I still think that there would still be plenty of potentially great teachers who want a better salary and go into other careers, but, yes, it can be workable. But that's not really what we're talking about.
@Andrae Smith and I ask you, how many students are asked why they want to be a teacher, say it's because of the money? Whether people like it or not, if you go into something being told it is going to be a certain way, don't get pissed off when it comes true. It's the same thing for people who go to college for Art or History degrees. If someone majors in one of those fields without some kind of back up plan, they are thinking with their heart and not their head. There just aren't that many jobs out there for Art and History majors that doesn't involve education, so when they are 'stuck' being a teacher, they have no one to blame but themselves for not planning out their future better.
Pay teacher 100 bucks an hour if you want - it won't make all students cleverererer if the curriculum doesn't change. Kids need to learn how to think for themselves, and to live their own lives, They need to answer questions and question answers not conform to a version of the truth that "they" want us to believe in and live by.
In defense of the Old World - you know an ancient civilization was badass when even their morons have become metonyms for contemporary words, like Herostratus. We certainly do have these today, but I don't think a belieber or a twitard can even begin to compare to a man who burned a whole temple to the ground for fame. On a different note, I do tend to lose hope in humanity every time I watch a segment from Fox News on YouTube, and then I have to go watch 10 Big Think videos to regain it again.
How many *more* students would say that they want to be a teacher, if they could say that it's in part because of the money? How many prospective teachers look at the possibility that they'll never be able to own their own home, that they may not be able to afford to have kids, and decide to find another career? Well-paid people in respected professions have more power. If we transform teachers into those well-paid people and teaching into that respected profession, those teachers may be able to take on the curriculum problems.
You're absolutely right The French textbooks we used in highschool were like 15-20 years old. For a Text book, that's not egregious, but so much has changed in the last decade I would have like to be learning current French. What we are learning now, in college, surprises me. The expressions, some of the vocabulary, what I learned in H.S. is just outdated. And there were a number of students who didn't have math books right away because it took so long to get more copies in. I was fortunate enough to go to a knew HS with some nice new tech. (the community actually voted to pay for nice things) but it wasn't perfect. @erebh I really agree with that. My Argument is that The education has a lot of flaws and money is ONE of them. I'm not saying it would even begin to solve the problems of what students are actually learning. They need to be learning to think for themselves, as you said. They need to be learning to think critically. They need to learn the truth. This is why I want to teach English. What I'm learning in college is critical thinking and how to put things into context and ask meaningful questions about what is being presented. I agree with you though, believe me. The curriculum does need a change up. @Lewdog all I have to say is you are right, they shouldn't be upset about meager pay if they know they'll be broke going into it, but many Teachers are. Take it or leave it, I'm not going to try to convince you. One question is why? Why can't we at least pay them enough to actually live on? I think @ChickenFreak freak raised a good point about teachers having to raise fund for materials as well. The issue is with officials misappropriating funds. I think Teaching is a job that should be respected enough to be paid a liable salary, but at the same time, the there needs to be a new attitude about how school funds are being managed as well as how and what students are being taught.
Thank you for the compliment. Although I aspire to teach where I can, I am not a teacher by profession.
@erebh - Thanksgiving is what it is, you can't change it because you don't like it. It makes you just as bad as the creationists. Lincoln enacted the holiday in 1863 as a national day to give "Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens." I would hope teachers would teach history as it happened, without bias. But I digress... The issue isn't money, it isn't curriculum, it isn't computers, it's the kids. Kids are different today and it's not in a good way. Our society, through the media, needs to take responsibility for the generation it has been raising since the 1960's. From music to TV to movies to video games, our moral fabric is being shredded and everyone just wants to ignore it.
@JJ_Maxx How would you "fix" today's kids? Strip away their imagination, suppress creativity and inundate them with lecture after lecture on the rewards of "hard work" and the "Christian way"? Would you try teaching everyone exactly the same way and penalize people who are different or can't conform. That would certainly be true to the Christian way of doing things (historically speaking). Edit: This is not me making a stab at your religion, but I bring it up because America at that time was staunchly Christian.
In all sincerity, I think you are over dramatizing things a bit. My aunt was a teacher before she died of a heart attack, and I've known quite a few teachers personally, and they don't have to live out of a shopping cart behind the local liquor store.
In short, there is no blanket statement for how teachers fair. I do know that in some parts of Cali. some teachers make a pretty good income of 70k-80k. But that is rare, and certainly no gurantee they're actually any good.
For someone with only vague recollections you cite in your posts, it's amazing how sure you are of the world. In WA state the thing that correlates most closely with state test scores is the percentage of kids on subsidized lunches. If the school has a small proportion of poor kids, the scores were high, and with a high proportion of poor kids the scores were lower. TEST SCORES, POVERTY AND ETHNICITY: THE NEW AMERICAN DILEMMA The above paper looks at additional data and the following paper controls for variables in poverty at home and school funding. School Funding and Student Achievement: an Empirical Analysis
That income in San Francisco is the equivalent of a lot less in Sacramento, so one has to also consider cost of living in the area the salary is paid.
No but when it comes to teaching, poor salaries means less skilled teachers are attracted to the profession.
Again one can't just look at the raw numbers (maybe you aren't?). If one makes less but everyone has health care, maternity leave, excellent retirement and so on, that needs to be factored in.
By "good" I meant by teacher's standards, and number-wise only. Most teachers don't make that much. Now, generally speaking you're absolutely right, that may sound like a decent pay until you consider the cost of living. :/
You mischaracterize my statements. Why would I stifle imagination or suppress creativity? I said nothing of the sort nor would I condone such things. I don't believe there is a way to fix them. We've already past the event horizon and I don't see society heading back into Christian values again. We've removed God from our lives and now we're seeing the consequences.
Nothing personal JJ, but God has his place, and it isn't in schools. When you put God in schools you stunt the variety of which kids can learn. God is a church matter, and that is where he should stay.
You can hold that belief, but that also means you must accept the negative consequences that come from that decision. I don't think your 'stunting variety' statement is true, unless you mean that we wouldn't allow boys to use the girls bathroom, in which case yeah, that would stop.
@JJ_Maxx I know You never said those things, I filled them in. Going back to the old ways would do just that, in my opinion. We'd be a fearful superstitious lot. The problem with Christianity is that it makes God too small. It makes God seem petty and vengeful, like us. God is much bigger and better than that. He cannot be brought so low because we've chosen not to teach one religion as fact in schools. God transcends religion. But this is assuming people will agree there is a god. That's something I'll save for another place and time. For the purpose of this conversation, there is no need to consider religious morality.
I disagree. The original topic of our society being morally and intellectually bankrupt and the new topic of student intellectual regression comes back to the denial of objective morality and the continuing removal of God from our lives. They are not only connected, they are causal.
No it means that Evolution wouldn't be taught, and that the children of different faiths would feel like out casts.
We have come a long way as far as morals as concerned. A lot of horrible methods of torture have been abolished. We are more concerned about human rights than we ever were. While we're not perfect by any means, I'd say we're still better than we were 50 or 100 years ago. The intellectually bankrupt thing I don't buy at all. There are so many smart teenagers and young adults starting companies, doing important research, getting involved in political matters, etc. You just need to know where to look.
What do you suppose God thought of Christians whipping and raping slaves in the 1800s? How about tearing children from their families and selling them off? How about lynchings? Does society get no credit for any improvements along with all the deterioration you see?
