Hated cliches

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by John the ninja, Jan 6, 2016.

  1. NeighborVoid

    NeighborVoid Active Member

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    Robots becoming sentient due to a "glitch". It's as ridiculous as "deleting the system 32 virus to download more RAM".
     
  2. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yeah, there are lots of books out there about rogue gunslingers, to the extent that it skews the vision of what the country was like at that time. Folks do gravitate towards lurid stories, don't they? Much more often than they should.

    The best b00ks about the old west are actually the primary sources which are available if anybody cares to look. These are the actual first-hand accounts of men and women who lived through that time. They are MUCH more interesting to read, and some of them are extremely well-written.

    Look at it this way. If, in 150 years' time, most of the books on shelves dealing with today's goings-on were about today's individual criminals ...complete with photos, stuff about their childhood deprivations, what they did, who arrested them, how they were punished (or not) ...what kind of picture would our future generations form of what we are like as a society? Criminality is certainly part of what we deal with today, but only a small part. It was the same percentage 'back then.'

    .........

    What is NSFW? o_O

    oh :eek: ...I learn something new every day ...good old Google....
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
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  3. KhalieLa

    KhalieLa It's not a lie, it's fiction. Contributor

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    My
    My people are Iron Age. They fight naked, unless you count the woad?
     
  4. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    ummm ...me too ...what he said ^ :)
     
  5. Imaginarily

    Imaginarily Disparu en Mer Contributor

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    C'mon honey buns, get in the cliché boat with me.

    Jack saved you a seat.
     
  6. SethLoki

    SethLoki Retired Autodidact Contributor

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    Lend me your De'Lorean @jannert I'll just nip back check the authenticity of Rawhide. Erstwhile—you can fix my Vamp pulp/trash while you wait for me to return (I've fallen out of love with it).

    Me neither; I've been educated by proxy with a family member locking the TV to 'Angel' and 'Supernatural' for most of eternity. From those sows' ears, I reckoned I could a silk purse make :confused:.

    Well there's a space or two going, what with the demise of Barbara Cartland and the inability of EL James. I'm confident (going on the posts I've read from you) that you'll fill that void. If it's set in the era of Rawhide, give me a fortnight and I'll be able to advise on the credibility of your setting. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
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  7. SethLoki

    SethLoki Retired Autodidact Contributor

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    Howdy @Link the Writer. Yeah, the leather, it's a hundred year old jacket (too late for chain mail and flails); more waxed than a Bentley and from the hide of some big ass bear. < The last bit's made up, but I can make it true if it's found bears existed in Romania in 1885.

    The title.... not settled on one yet but 'Whited Sepulchre' ?? is fave, although I'm not sure it'd grab the interest of the shelf browsing sort. I want something that shouts 'Beauty with a rotten core' in an eloquent manner.
     
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  8. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Oh, yeah. I also dislike obligatory 'villains' in stories. People are more complicated than that, aren't they?
     
  9. SethLoki

    SethLoki Retired Autodidact Contributor

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    Do you mean like the antagonist being too archetypal or the placement of dispensable henchmen?

    A dislike for me is the moment a baby member of a hiding group chooses to cry – just as the searching villain is about to leave.
     
  10. Kingtype

    Kingtype Banned Contributor

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    Just to respond to you.

    I'll try not to ramble to long but no promises.

    I'm not much of a western guy but I'd love to write one someday I think ....make it more on the realistic side or not or maybe I will (I might just write two if I wanna do one realistic and one more 'lurid' or maybe mix it) But that's later right now I mostly do crime and fantasy so I'm no big western reader like you.

    Though crime has always existed ....pretty much but I'm doing crime set in the 70s.

    So still pretty far from the old west :p

    But to answer your question as an American. (or at least my personal take on it). The reason we write such western tales that have such an unrealistic feel or more like wild feel to them is because that's our mythos basically.

    The USA is a pretty young country compared to some others. Get what I mean? Culture wise Europe (UK and others) has the knights and dragons and Japan has the samurai or ninja but being that we came later the best thing we have to a mythos so to speak is the wild west. So we treat that kinda like our mythology and folklore which is why we write such. Also its important to remember that for better or for worse and historically speaking ....the gun itself (the weapon) is very tied to American culture.

    Not talking about politics but just philosphy wise.

    Guns, the west, Billy the Kid, Wild Bill, Pecos Bill, John Henry, Wyatt Earp and heck even Johnny Appleseed XD are more or less our culture mythos and folklore. Now I agree people should learn about the actual west in the past but figured I'd share what I thought :)

    Then of course there is Native American mythology which I'd consider part of the American mythos and history overall.

    But yeah that's why we probably write very pulpy and actiony west stuff is because at its core its our samurai and knights XD
     
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  11. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I think you're probably right, that it's become an American myth. You don't have to look much further than what's happening in Oregon at the moment to believe that. But while dragons and ninjas are mythical creatures, people who actually settled and/or originally lived in the Old West are not. And unfortunately, now the 'mythology' created by writers like Zane Grey and perpetrated by movies and TV shows like Gunsmoke and Deadwood have made people think outlawry is all there is to it.

    It's the fact that this gunslinger cliche is NOT representative that bothers me so much. If your only view of Europe contained dragons and so-called knights fighting them, I would worry, but I'm sure you know there's a lot more to Europe's history than that. I wish people would believe the same about America's old west, and understand that the period was chock full of variety and experience of all kinds.

    By the way, while I moved to Scotland at the age of 37, back in 1986, and have recently become a UK citizen, I actually am an American by birth and upbringing (Michigan)! :)

    I cut my baby teeth on books like Old Yeller (NOT the movie) and the Laura Ingalls Wilder series of BOOKS (not that dreadful TV show) ...and graduated to more adult versions of the Old West, such as the fiction written by James Welch, Andrew Doig and AB Guthrie. And the semi-autobiographical writings of Charlie Russell, Will James, Andy Adams (all real cowboys at some stage in their lives, who wrote fictional stories about the cowboy life as it was really lived), Mari Sandoz (daughter of a Nebraska homesteader), etc. And the 'real life' autobiographies of Teddy Blue Abbott, Granville Stuart, Nat Love, Grace Snyder, Elinore Pruitt, and many many others. These are the books that fascinate me, and I get so annoyed that so many people think the west is all about cowboys shooting at each other all the time or being chased around by some posse. Just so not true.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
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  12. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I watched this movie a few weeks ago: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0431021/

    It's pretty much The Exorcist but with a Jewish demon and a rabbi instead of a Christian demon and a priest. I quite enjoyed it.
     
  13. Necronox

    Necronox Contributor Contributor

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    Is the vast majority of members on this forum living in the British Isles? o_O

    On a side note, when a character continually makes the same mistake, again and again... ugh.
     
  14. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Nice! I'll check it out. Thanks. :)

    The vast majority of the members here seem to be from the British Isle and the United States, it would seem. :p :D

    But at any rate, yeah, I get sick of characters who apparently are incapable of learning from their mistakes. You'd think the other characters would either smack sense into them or give up trying. :/

    @Kingtype & @jannert - Dammit, people! :p I don't want to derail this thread but you both are very much correct. While the typical "grungy American cowboy running around shooting up bad guys in the O.K. Corral" is to us Yanks as samurais is to Japan and knights and feudal lords/kings is to Europe, it's actually a good idea to research what they really were (all three of them.) Get a feel as to what life was really like for the samurai, knight, and cowboy. The culture, the socio-political outlook at the time. It's all very interesting stuff. :)
     
  15. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    And now I'm off to Amazon...

    ETA: Oooh, it's on Audible! Yay!
     
  16. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    Video game cliche: Enemies that are bullet sponges, despite the fact that the rest of the games mechanics/physics are accurate. (Black) :p
    Zombies-Movies, Television, Books,Etc...Why? It has become a parody of itself.
    'Modern' Vampires- Great way to make them lame. Blade gets a pass for at least explaining why he is able to walk out in the sun.
    Youth Dystopian Stories-As if being a teenager isn't bad enough. Now lets throw them into mortal danger, so they can defeat(insert some evil group here, that would in reality not be taken down by a teenager).
    The 'Chosen one'-See Zombies and multiply by 3. :p
    Deus Ex Machina-How convenient for the characters/plot. Need I say more...
    Unskilled/Untrained Character instantly becomes a badass, or solves problem that the 'greatest minds' just can't seem too.
    The familiar 'leave me here to die' thing. Really could have lived if you weren't trying to be a drama queen.
    The timer stops a second before the bomb detonates. Nah, their ass is toast.
    The magic infinite ammo magazine-Not buying you have a thousand rounds in a 30 round magazine.
    Russians are always the 'bad guys'. In Warbots, they save the American's butts. :p
    Lasers as viable weapons. Ever heard of thing called mirrors?
    Ridiculously unconventional items. Yep my toaster is the mighty morphing whatever I need it to be too.:D
    Robots that take over the city/world- In an acronym: EMP.
    Fantasy Sci-Fi- Oxymoron
    Knowing the exact location of whatever without having mapped it out, or having been there.
    Protagonist comes out every situation virtually unscathed, unless it at the end. Then its ok for them to get a boo boo, as long as it isn't fatal.
    Psychics being 100% accurate- The Magic 8 Ball disagrees.
    The favored characters are always bombshells and hunks. Not in my novel, or it's sequel. Show some realistic people damn it.
    The cop with one day left till retirement, and something goes down. Ooh, totally didn't see that one coming.
    1984 spin offs.
    Cults- All Hail the Hypno-toad, Glory to the Hypno-toad.
    Inept guards/security that miss the obvious protagonist slinking around the building. Have you no eyes and ears?


    Well that is all I can think of. I know that a lot of them cross over into other medias, but does that make them any less cliche. :D
     
  17. Wild Knight

    Wild Knight Senior Member

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    There's no cliche that I really hate.

    Except for romantic plot tumors. Needless, gratuitous sex scenes. Self-sacrifice scenes. (Jean Grey of the second X-Men movie earns a death glare from me there...) Chosen Ones. Darker and edgier.

    Especially "DARKER AND EDGIER". Ooooh. Color me unimpressed. Makes me want to write something where the protagonist is so deeply unimpressed by the overabundance of "DARKER AND EDGIER" that they break their own damn willing suspension of disbelief... and walk right out, saying "Wake me when this bullshit becomes less trendy. I'm done."
     
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  18. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    Now that you mention it, "people saying 'complicated characters are not villains' and vice versa" is one of my most hated cliches.

    Of all the characters I've come up with so far, my favorite has been a Villain Protagonist that I've gone to great lengths to make 3-dimensional.
     
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  19. Kingtype

    Kingtype Banned Contributor

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    Now that's quite interesting.

    I mean I know we haven't talked often but speaking as a much younger man myself, I can't really imagine living in any other country. Not to say its bad you moved, I've always assumed Scotland is a pretty awesome place.

    But I've barely been to ten states yet alone a different country. Not to say I want to move (I do love the USA and I'm content....well content as someone who is nineteen can be, I've still got that damn person's hungry to win mindset) but I just think its real amazing you were able to do that. :)

    Not to get off topic.

    That's just awesome.

    Plus you been there since the 80s just WOW! I've got a pretty big imagination and I can't even imagine living somewhere like Alaska or Hawaii that long (live in Pittsburgh atm born and raised). Also not to say Scotland is like the two aformentioned states but boy that's really cool! :D That you have two countries and have lived and experinced both first hand in your lifetime.

    Anyway regarding the westerns.

    I love the mythical stuff but I totally agree there should be more realistic types of them just as much anyway but Deadwood is a damn good show imo as was the Hateful Eight movie (which I just saw but that wasn't really traditional). But if I ever write one I'd like it to be realistic as possible. (yet I do have a bit of a strong urge to write a take on a gunslinger as well)

    You said you wrote a western piece once which is pretty great to! :) Period pieces are great. Will certainly check out those books you listed as well when I can (Wanna read more westerns in general both realistic and mythical just to get a taste to enjoy the genre itself in literary form)
     
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  20. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Well, you could do a lot worse than read some of those authors I mentioned, especially if you're interested in actual cowboys. Charles Russell was a storyteller/artist and a cowboy himself (not a novelist) and his stories contain some of the liveliest and most accurate representations of what cowboy life was like in Montana in the 1880s. (I'm comparing him to the first-hand nonfiction accounts of the same place and period, like Teddy Blue Abbott's We Pointed them North, and he's very accurate.) Compare those writings to Deadwood, and you might begin to see why I'm not a fan of the show.

    While Deadwood got the look of that place and the costuming absolutely spot-on (I've seen photos of the real Deadwood)—and in that way the show was good—the dialogue was modern, and the general attitude and storyline was cliched Western with mostly black hats. (And yes, people did swear like troopers back in those days, but NOT the kind of swearing depicted in the show. That really irked me. When cowboys and westerners swore, they blasphemed. Sometimes quite colourfully! All the fuckin this, fuckin that stuff in Deadwood was not authentic at all, but it seemed to be the only swear word anybody knew besides cunt. And it really began to get up my nose. Not because of the swearing itself, but because it was so inaccurate for the period. They might just as well have been calling each other 'dude,' or twerking. Maybe they did that too, in the second series?)

    I started out watching the show on DVD in very excited mode, because it was 'my' favourite period ...and was disappointed enough in the cliched storyline, the dorky characters and the anachronistic tone of the show that I never bought the second series, and gave my first series DVDs away. I have no idea what happened to those characters, and I don't care.

    Another writer (very popular) who did cowboys pretty well was Larry McMurtry in Lonesome Dove. While there was a lot of violence in that story, it was balanced with more realistic views of how people lived, and gave the impression that there was more to life than what was happening just to those characters. While he crammed a LOT into that story, and in that sense it wasn't realistic for all those things to happen to the same people (and consequently a great deal of myth), it was more believable to me than Deadwood. Watch that TV series as well, if you can.

    Sarah, Plain and Tall (starring Glenn Close and Christopher Walken) is a TV series that did the settler's West really well. And not a black hat to be seen anywhere.

    If you're interested in the historical Native American perspective, the best novelist I know is/was James Welch. He wrote only two historical novels (most of his novels were set in more modern times), but they are both amazingly good. Fool's Crow is a plain-speaking and occasionally shocking overview of one Native American man's life during the settlement/genocide period, and I think The Heartsong of Charging Elk is one of the best books I've ever read in any genre. It provides one of the best insights into what Native Americans faced during the late 19th century—even though it's set mostly in Marseilles, France! (A Lakota man traveling with Buffalo Bill's Wild West show falls ill on tour and gets left behind to fend for himself. The story is stunning, and doesn't do what you expect. One of those stories you don't ever forget.)

    Anybody interested in Victorian-era (or later) periods should always seek out primary sources as well, if possible. Primary sources are diaries and other writings that were produced AT THE TIME, by people who actually lived these stories. Some of them are well-written (some not) but taken all together they give a much more accurate picture of life than any cliched myth could ever do.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016
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  21. Kingtype

    Kingtype Banned Contributor

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    My uncle.

    Who actually got me writing really, really, really and I mean REALLY loved Lonesome Dove (he loved Deadwood to) but he really was into Lonesome Dove. He just loved westerns in general ....realistic or not just liked em.

    I'm a bit more of a modernistic man myself.

    Writing as super duper realistic western seems like much much more a challenge then do something from say 1940s onward? But that makes sense the further you go back the harder it probably is. Though to be fair to Deadwood's characters they did use real life people.

    Which while probably not accurate I can't imagine the real life Al Swearengen was a very nice man based on what I know what about him. Of course times change but to briefly summarize he was a thug, a pimp and just generally mean.

    Which is really interesting to me.

    I'd love to be able to write in every genre (and of course generally just mix and play with them all) but my main two I shift towards mostly are crime and fantasy (though more of a weird-fantasy) and if I ever tackled a western.

    It would probably be some sort of crime fiction but just set in the 1800s. Be really really fascinating to explore the mentality of a criminal of that period. Its been done a million times but it excites thinking about tackling that far back someday.

    Would try to spin any cliches upside down while keeping it as true to the history as I could....big research before I'd dive in. The dialogue I imagine would be the hardest.

    Of course thoughts and feelings are also hard but getting the voice down is the hardest part for writing far back when the dialect starts to really change imo.
     
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  22. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Well, the dialogue was often in iambic pentameter, too - to me, that makes it pretty clear they were going for creative effect, not photo-realistic recreation. (We don't generally criticize Shakespeare because his dialogue wasn't realistic...)

    I guess this is possibly a separate thread, but I think that show is an interesting example of the balance that has to be maintained between being realistic and feeling realistic. According to sources I've read, the creators initially used authentic curses from the period and found that, to a modern audience, they didn't have the same effect as they had historically. So, for example, if a person said "what in tarnation" back then, it would have about the same effect on the listener as someone saying "what the fuck" today. In order to give the appropriate effect, they used the modern words. (I've read a few places about the original language making the characters sound like Yosemite Sam to modern audiences. So the creators have to ask themselves - what's more important? Creating an authentic dictionary, or an authentic impression?

    I think we do similar things with other dialogue in fiction - have you ever done that exercise where you record and then transcribe actual everyday speech? It's practically incomprehensible when written down. Not effective for our novels, so we clean it up a bit. Not too much, but just enough. (Another of those damn judgement calls we have to make!)

    I can see why you'd be disappointed in Deadwood if you were looking for a photographic representation of the time, but if you look at it as an impressionist painting, you might like it better!
     
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  23. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    You make an extremely good point about how blasphemic swearing might hit the modern ear—Yosemite Sam. That's funny. (Tarnation was a mild form of expression back then, sort of like darn or drat. The real swearing of the period got much more black and bleak ...but more along the lines of taking the Lord's name in vain kind of thing. In a society where Christianity was more or less universally adhered to and respected, this was pretty heavy-duty stuff.)

    If the modern language alone was my only objection to the show, your point about how swearing hits the modern ear might turn the tide in the show's favour. But I'm afraid I really disliked the stereotyped characters and the self-consciously unremitting 'gritty' attitude of the show. I felt there was a lack of balance. You're right, though. If you look at is as a work of art that says something in particular about the universe in general, it works. It's just that it's NOT an accurate representation of the period—but is often seen to be. That's what bothers me most. It perpetrates myths about the old west something rotten. At a time when Americans really really need to understand their past more accurately, this doesn't sit well with me.

    What is interesting is that these kinds of myths present rather shallow views of life. The real happenings of the west have much more to offer. Truth really is stranger than fiction, but fiction could benefit from a closer look at truth, in my opinion.

    I'm perfectly happy for people to like the show, and can kind of see its appeal. I'm just not happy if these fans think it's the only way things were. Or that the people who now populate the western states are all descendants of types like Calamity Jane, Wild Bill Hickok, Swearingen and Co.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016
  24. Kingtype

    Kingtype Banned Contributor

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    @jannert

    The convo is ironic kinda about Deadwood because HBO is doing this now.



    Westworld series which actually makes sense for the world in it to be as 'mythical' crazy over the top gunslinger western XD cause its a theme park/simulation.
     
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  25. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    A good 'modern' Western writer who makes good use of the cliches, and portrays a particular location very well (west Texas) is the recently-dead Elmer Kelton. I quite like his writing, actually. In fact he's the only Western genre writer whom I like enough to buy a few of his books. You might want to check him out.

    I suppose exploring the mentality of a criminal in that period could be interesting. But the important point I hope I'm making is that a criminal mentality was no way representative of people of that time and place. Not everybody who moved west got involved in bank robberies or gunfights or land wars. In fact MOST people didn't.

    Some folks saw the 'frontier' as a place to escape criminal justice, but the vast number of people who moved there had no criminal records or tendencies. They were families who wanted a better life for themselves (at the expense of the Indians, whom they allowed to be slaughtered or stuffed onto reservations, and the Chinese and Irish navvies who built the railroads but who were never 'welcomed'.) In fact, it was interesting how fast the trappings of eastern civilisation were brought in to any settlement. First a church or two and a school, then 'opera houses,' roller-skating rinks (VERY popular) and other things of this nature. Traveling shows of a very highbrow nature were immensely popular. Writers like Oscar Wilde, Charles Dickens and classical singers like Jenny Lind and Lily Langtree were sought after. This doesn't smack of a criminal mentality, does it?

    Self-reliance, resourcefulness and individuality were encouraged during the settlement period, but not criminal behaviour. If anything, people welcomed the idea of community, because the land and climate and potential isolation was so intimidating. It didn't make sense to constantly be falling-out with your neighbours, never mind shooting at them. Of course there were land wars, bank robberies, vigilante raids and other violent activities, but they were not considered 'normal.'

    Another really interesting source of information and overview are the newspapers of the period. I've bought several of these on microfilm, and what struck me immediately when I read them was the ordinariness of what the newspapers reported. It was just life.

    I know people sneer at Laura Ingalls Wilder sometimes (especially people who have only seen that banal TV show) but if you compare the issues she wrote about to what appears in these papers, you'll see that her stories are more like reality than Gunfight at the OK Corral.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016
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