@123456789 : Maybe it depends on how much someone loves animals? I have dogs, some of them have been my best friends of all time, and now that they're gone I grieve for them as strongly as I do for human family members that passed. I totally identify with the term 'fellow animals' because that's how I experience myself, with them. I too was a moral vegetarian, purely due to heartbreak I felt about the meat industry. I was a fan of The Smiths when I was a teen and through them, became aware of what goes on inside it. These days I try my best to source all my meat (I eat as little as I can of it) from the local organic, free-range farms. I feel uncomfortable eating it, but due to health reasons, I can't keep up with the vegetarian diet (can't eat much vitamin K and that basically restricts a lot of ingredients a vegetarian or a vegan would eat). I totally get the irony of both terms, but I wonder whether it is something only certain people can identify with, which doesn't make them any less valid than universal terms
Being a "moral vegetarian" doesn't mean implying that non vegetarians are immoral. It just means being vegetarian for moral reasons, and not for religious or health ones. If we want to discuss morality, I have no problem whatsoever stating that whoever thinks that today's animal factory farms are moral is fundamentally sick.
It's not moral. Intellectually most of know this. But look, when I want to exercise my brain, I can sit here and lament the disgusting meat factories and rationalize how we can fix things- but as an animal (which the vegetarians have so rightly pointed out we are), when I see a juicy steak sitting in front me, either in the supermarket or hot off the grill, I'm sure as hell going to eat it, just like any self respecting lion would.
I just listen to my body (or, body&mind if I need to be so clear). Most modern dietary and exercise habits I find neurotic.
Do moral vegetarians let their fellow friends feed in their fertile fields, or fire upon their fur as they forage for food on your farm?
Wow, lot's of great comments here. Having read them all, I'm tempted to comment, but I have other responsibilities today. I will be back to comment tonight though--probably sometime after my own workout! Thank you all for the interesting discussion. Also! If anyone learns of any new "research/developments" in health and wellness (e.g. diet, exercise, nutrition facts, and the like) or has any knowledge from experience in the fields, definitely feel free to share it here!
When butchering, the aroma of the meat entices me to eat it straight off the butcher block, which I do. There have been times the urge was so overpowering, I will have consumed over 8 oz by the time I'm finished.
I don't know what kind of workouts you do, but I'm a body building instructor. If you have workout related questions feel free to ask, I'm always happy to help (PM if you want).
Seriously? You know, this isn't the Debate Room. Is it really necessary to start an argument here, especially such a ridiculous one?
@jazzabel I'm sorry about your illness, I can't imagine what its been like for you. I have to agree with your "definition" of health. Being free of symptoms and having no functional limits is my ideal (although I'm currently not living up to it ha ha, more on that later though ). I'll have to look up qi gong to get an understanding of it, but I think I got the right image when you said tai chi. Wow, is Kundalini yoga really that good? I've wanted to try it for a little while now. I've also wondered what it's like growing your own produce. Do you have to follow the seasons, or do the things you plant grow year-round? One of my grandma's neighbors and long time friend keeps a garden. He grows all kinds of things and sells what he and his wife don't need. As far as diet goes, that sounds like a good balance. I think I'm going to take your idea and incorporate one or two vegetarian days into my schedule. It's so much easier than trying to drop meat cold turkey. Last year I stopped for a month and a half because of a trend I was following, "no meat March" but once it was over, I chose to make some steaks and gradually worked meat back in. I feel like I can stop whenever I get the nerve up to put my foot down. As for sweets... I finally just go a handle on that. My body grew a sweet tooth this year... I'm trying to cut junk and fast food, but it's hard being broke and having to live on what the college has available. I've mostly cut fast food, I only really go to subway now--sadly I go a few times a week but I tend to stick to their veggie sandwiches. @KaTrian I'm glad you've got a handle on your relationship with food. Call it whatever you like, I personally like your self empowering approach over the victimization approach. Not many people like to think of their health as something within their control (when things go bad), but I've never met someone who would rather see themself as in control. It's good that you get a lot of motion. I've decided I don't want an office job. I cant take the sitting anymore. I can get so wrapped up in just homework and replying to you guys, and interacting with other people online I can spend a good portion of my day sitting. I told my sister, "I think, out of 24 hrs. in a day, I lay down for about 7 to sleep, spend maybe a total of an hour actively moving around, and the rest is seated doing something... not good... more on that later too. And you know, some people just naturally burn calories. I never was one, but I think I might be more so than I used to be--strangely. Processed food is generally lame!!! But it's keeping me "alive" so I'm not complaining until I can make a difference lol. Its good to eat pleanty of green veggies and protein rich foods. My thing is trying to balance my intake so that all my calories work for me by providing something nutritious. You know, I've never understood depression. I'm not bashing on it, so excuse me if that sounded like I was being condescending. I mean I literally don't understand it. I've never been truly depressed. I can't say my life has pressured me hard enough to (thank God). Maybe the right influences have helped me to stay generally positive. If anything, stress my get to me. I say I don't stress over things, but I know on some level, I'm still conscious of my problems and trying to work them out. Meditation is a huge help, one that Im trying to pick up again but time is working against me. Now I don't have stress, but all these different pulls to do this and that @T.Trian Oh wow, I'm sorry about your pain. I remember you had mentioned this before on the forums, but I don't remember if I asked you about the cause. Were you injured initially? What is ankylosing spondylitis? I thought about joining boxing, but I think it might be a little too intense for me, at least right now. Not in a physically demanding way (although I'm sure it would kick my @$$, literally), but in a sense that I'm generally not very aggressive. Granted, I'm sure hitting people is pretty fun a part of me has wanted to try boxing or kick boxing. I'm jealous of my friends who get to take "free" classes through their universities. ASU doesn't offer them as regular elective options. :/ Also, that is also some good advice you guys have given! @stevesh so you're completely vegan? @thirdwind ...bro... I hear ya loud and clear on all of that! I don't exactly struggle with stress, but being in college provides plenty of stressors. In the end it all makes me tired. I end up just wanting to sleep for days, then get up and go climb a mountain or something. It ain't easy eating healthy either. @Mackers It's funny that you mention illness. Personally, I think disease and sickness is brought on by our own unhealthy choices. No, I can't point to any science to thoroughly back that up, but it's something I believe on a more spiritual level. Regardless, from the time I started getting active ad eating, physical problems started going away. My asthma fell dormant, I could stand and walk straighter, I could digest more easily and I got sick maybe once a year. When I started eating healthier, balancing a variety of plant based foods, the benefits only increased as problem that I didn't even know were there fell away. @Garball Brilliant... I struggle to find anyone who would disagree with you there. Ha Ha. @mammamaia I totally respect your decision. I am wondering though, how did you know you wanted to be a vegetarian without going back. I am about 50/50. I want to be, but a part of me doesn't want to give up meat, especially since its so ingrained in my family culture. Also, did you raise your children as vegetarians, or was that decision later in life? I also applaud you for you success on your exercise bike! I love to see people make the decision to get healthier and actually follow through. Improvement i all that matters, and that sure ain't bad for a woman of your age. My great-grandma's older brother, Bob, is 92 I think and he still gets out and plays golf from time to time, and her younger brother, Herbert (80), still drives and gets around (we've got decent longevity).... @sunsplash Hey, kids are a workout by themselves ha ha! It's amazing how much you do. Kudos for setting a good example. I hope you and all your kids live love and play strong. You do bring up another good point. When you have kids it's easy to neglect yourself a little bit. I think it's definitely important to find that balance between doing for them and doing for you. I'm glad your husband helps. I've sen some situations get kind of ugly because one parent is trying to shoulder everything, losing him- or herself in the process... Keep working at it though, I'd say it's paying off if you love your life and your kids are happy and appreciating you. @Darkkin Wow! I'm so happy for you! Congratulations. Keep pushing towards your goal. Life is an open door... I totally agree with your last paragraph too. @GingerCoffee Hey, giiiiiiiirl, It's been a minute. I ain't heard from you in a while. How you doin? Thanks for the links! The things they are putting in our food sources. Steroided meat, and genetically modified veggies... I would love to go organic, but I can't afford it yet. I wish you luck though! And Thai food huh? Is that your weakness??? @Michael Collins Mmmmm... yeah... see, that diet is a little too extreme for me right now. Mayhaps I'll try it in the future. How well does it work for you as a bodybuilder? I Take it, it plays of certain body cycle/time tables? Yeah, going to bed on a full stomach is bad. My grandma used to talk about it all the time. I never really woke up sick though--probably because I rarely went to bed on a full stomach. Recently though, I've eaten late and woken up ck/full and it messes with my hole eating cycle. And I think you raise a huge point about water, and not just for bodybuilders and dieters. We need to drink a lot of water! Most people don't drink enough. Admittedly, I could drink more. And I'll be sure to hit you up with work out questions. I'm sure a few will come up now that I'm going to be working out a bit differently that I used to back in high school. @Madman, that sounds like a good routine. I love the fact that it is generally outdoors and natural. If I weren't trying to pack on muscle I'd be doing more calisthenics and such because they're so good for you. A bit harder too, if you ask me. Hmm, you aren't the only one to recommend oatmeal. Is it really that good for you on training days? @123456789, my question to you is on what ground do you stand to say vegetarianism isn't moral? "Logic" and "reason" are no evidence here because you can only base it off of your understanding. We all understand the world in different ways, and maia is not the only one to find it more moral not to kill animals for food. Whether it has a spiritual implication, or something else entirely, idk, but I think the moral reasons she had are good enough. If we didn't have people slaughtering, butchering and selling for/to us, I would drop meat in a heart beat. Just don't need it. @marshipan That is a good philosophy. I'm trying to get more in touch with my body, to bring a harmony to mind, body and soul, really, and I've found decent success in listening to my body's reactions and understanding its urges. Phew that was a marathon! I have no idea how long I have been typing but it's been a while. Tomorrow, I'll weigh in with my own post...
I never said that's not moral. I was responding to the post above mine about the meat factories. I try not to quote when I don't have to :O
@Andrae Smith : Thanks man It's much better now that I moved to the seaside, the air is so fresh and I've even been able to reduce my inhalers, which is always a wonderful sign. The diet is a constant struggle, when I don't feel well I can't bear cooking so we end up ordering pizza or Chinese and finally this year I became deficient in so many nutrients, I had to start taking supplements. I totally understand how difficult it can be to get a good diet while studying. One of the things you can do is get a Crock Pot. It is a heavenly helper, basically, buy some cheap fresh ingredients, an onion, a pepper, carrot, couple of potatoes and tomatoes and a couple of pieces of chicken, or beef or whatever you like, chickpeas, spices, kale, anything that seems to go together, chop, shove into the crock pot, and leave on high or low for 6-8 hours. Do that on the weekends, or in the morning, so when you come back from Uni, you have a rich and tasty, healthy meal from your slow cooker, with plenty of leftovers too. It's a cheap piece of equipment that plugs into electricity socket, very easy to use. If you also buy a blender, you can chop little baggies of fruit and veg on the weekends, freeze and take out one each morning to make a smoothy for breakfast.
@Andrae Smith It's not a diet plan for gaining weight or for bulking, that's for sure. I started eating this way to make loose some weight now that I've been out of gyms for six months, having moved home twice, in different cities, in this same period of time. Eating like this should minimize the loss of lean body mass. I have never been a competitive body builder, the great part of my training always came from martial arts, body building was just a way to get some extra training, that quickly became a passion after I discovered all the science and secrets behind it . Lately I've been training at home and jogging a bit, but I must admit I'm slacking off.
Not needing your inhaler is a wonderful sign. I actually need to take up running again so I can reduce the probability of me needing mine again soon. I've been so in active aside from cycling everywhere I need to go, it's just not the same. And you know, sometimes we all have those nights. Which is what makes convenient food great, when we need a moment of convenience. And oh no! Is it from your diet or just a result of the illness. I hope the supplements do you as much good as you can expect from them (maybe more ). And you know, I actually know how to cook. I've wanted a crock pot, I just don't have he money right now. It's okay, though as I don't need it. I've got a few pans, a regular pot--basically everything I need to cook some nice meals...except the ingredients. I only have prepaid "M&G" dollars that I can use on campus, but they only sell so many things, so getting some ingredients i just out of the question. That's another reason I've been looking so hard for a job. I want to have money to spend at a real store on real ingredients so I can cook. I've up most of my ingredients. I'm down to some radishes, carrots, an onion, a few stocks of asparagus, and some frozen meals. I'd by more of the healthier frozen meals, but I have to be economical Everything costs more on campus. Fr example. Walmart sells Cheerios for $3.29, but ASU charges $5.29 for the same box... not cool. Still I manage to get ahold of some nice salads, some subway, some fruit (mainly apples, bananas and oranges) and some other things on campus.
Okay, it didn't quite seem like it. You have to eat a lot (at least of the right foods) to pack on mass, from what I understand. Have you ever considered competing? I have a friend whose training for a competition (I forgot which one). The science behind bodybuilding is really cool. I would get into it, but HAVE TOO MUCH OF A Split focus right now. So much I have and/or want to do.... What kind of martial arts did you do?... and I hear ya. I used to be in great shape, and so much stronger. I know this isn't a huge jump, but I've dropped from 175 lbs to 158 lbs since I stopped lifting (just other things came along, I'll probably put it in another message later) and it was mostly muscle mass I had built up from being a shotputter (albeit a small one ha ha, my real focus was discus). I've been working for the last little bit (though not as hard as I should be) to get back into shape before Summer and and the beach trips with my buds. Gotta maintain my image.
I started as a kid with Karate (don't we all?) then switched to Muay Thai and finally Boxing, since I'm really short for my weight class, and you don't want to be short and heavy in Muay Thai. I'm about 85 kg (187 lbs) just 175cm (5'10"). At my height the average for Muay Thai is about 60kg (132 lbs), and since I'm at 12% fat it's almost impossible for my to go lower than this. Went through an anorexia phase growing up, and 72 kg (158 lbs) is as low as I can go, only by starving myself. We had a guy who weighted in at 65 kg (143 lbs) at 6'5". I sparred against him once, completely pointless. His elbow strikes had more reach than my kicks. Shot Putting is awesome, I always wanted to try it, but never found a place to do it where I live. About competing in body building, no way. It's hell, you have to push mind ad body to a limit I can't afford to reach now. And I'm also really out of shape now.
It's both, I think. I was stuck in the house for a couple of years and blood thinning medication makes my skin sensitive to light (so Vit D was low), I couldn't eat enough veg that contain B vitamins because they also contains vit K (that antagonises my medication and messes up bleeding times) and I don't eat enough red meat or, again, green leafy veg, to make up for the iron. So yeah, it's difficult to strike a balance, but I think I finally managed. I wish I no longer needed my inhalers, I still do, but less then before, and because my lungs will eventually recover, I am hoping to be inhaler free soon Your diet sounds a lot better then watermelon, popcorn, cheese and muesli bars (coffee and cigarettes) I used to live on. I was lucky, being an immigrant, I sat for an interpreter exam and passed, so I had a handy, well-paid side job. But after 38 hour per week uni/hospital time (just the compulsory stuff, add at least 20 more for studying etc) I had hardly any time left to work. I hope you find a job soon, having that little bit extra makes so much difference
Well, I notice a difference compared to my ordinary breakfast, it's just a bit more energy to use. And since I can't chew on anything solid in the mornings, (don't ask why) it's the best alternative to get something good in the stomach. I like old and tried things. I don't trust all these powders for one second, sure you look big, but are you really building a functional body? But then again, I'm no scientist. We all exercise for different purposes, some to look well, others to look both well and to be healthy. And some train only for functionality. I train my body to endure, I want it to be able to carry me through hard and rough places. (Places where you wont find any energy drinks or powder supplements lying around) Hiking can be a choir sometimes.
@Andrae Smith It's always a great feeling to have your work as a parent acknowledged, so thank you! I will second @jazzabel on the crock pot! I just bought a second cheap one for $20 at Walmart (if you shop there, I know some people refuse) to have on hand for holiday dinners and it works just as well as my $60 dollar one, just with a dial instead of electronic display, and it's only a quart and a half smaller. I slow cook every Tuesday and Thursday when my daughter's extracurriculars keep us out late. If I didn't I know I'd be in a drive-thru and I try to keep that as a treat once or twice a month at the very most.
The only bad thing about a crock pot is, the longer you cook a vegetable the more nutrients you cook out of it. If at all possible, try cooking the meat in a crock pot using vegetable broth, then cook the vegetables separate with a steamer. If you don't have a steamer you can use the same method I use. Just take a large pot and fill it with about 4 inches of water. Then place a colander above the water sitting on the rim of the pot. Then cover the pot with foil so that it retains most of the steam but not so much that the water boils over. It shouldn't take too long to boil the vegetables. The major problem with eating healthy is the cost, unless you have the time and space to plant your own garden.
@sunsplash hey, gotta commend parents who are active and engaged. I've seen parents who simply don't try. There is no guidebook for parenting, but people who do their best to raise healthy, happy, active children, who spend time with their kids, are valuable. I don't mind shopping at wal-mart right now. I normally don't but beggars can't be chooser. I just don't have $20 to invest all the time. ASU is charging me. Crock pots are great, but @Lewdog is right. The longer you cook vegetables, the more nutrients you kill. Steaming is better. I usually lightly steam my vegetables, just to the point of softening and flavor begins to come out. I eat some vegetables raw too. I don't have a large pot or a strainer, but I have a couple of large bowls, so I make conscious use of the microwave (meaning I know it's not the best method of cooking and steaming, but I have to make choices ). Like you said, cost is the biggest obstacle.
Go to your local Goodwill or any shop like that. You can usually find pots pretty cheap. You can get a plastic colander at Dollar Tree or places like that for only a dollar.
