Help of a native speaker

Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by dylan22, Jan 25, 2016.

  1. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax Contributor Contributor

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    Another UK perspective is that I wouldn't use then to emphasize that I'd reached a decision, I'd use the tone of my voice, and stress it...

    For a while I thought Jeff and Dean are the same person. But they are not the same then.

    Incidentally, shouldn't it be "For a while I thought Jeff and Dean are were the same person."?
     
  2. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    Not sure why people are insistent that ending a sentence with 'then' must denote a question. It's a question if someone sticks a question mark at the end because they are explicitly asking for confirmation. In this case, the speaker was not, even if the responder was providing validation. This kind of conversation is normal. To add a question mark would change the tone of the interaction.

    It is extraneous and can be removed, but sometimes it's these minor things that can add character that is distinct from another. To me it's just a pattern of speech, and we all don't have to talk the same.

    But thanks @Wayjor Frippery for mentioning its regional origin. I didn't think the British did it more so than the Americans, but I was looking through some articles and this particular one was most useful to me. So using the examples in the article with the example here, it would mean "in that case". This would be consistent with how I've heard it used. I couldn't tell you if the speakers were brits or 'aussies'.

    https://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com.au/2010/08/then.html
     
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  3. dylan22

    dylan22 Member

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    But they are not the same then = In that case they are not the same

    This sounds strange?
     
  4. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    Going by your fuller example. The way I read the dialogue is based on Cathy's confirmation that the old photo was not of the friend. In that case, they are not the same person. It is taking the flow of conversation as a whole. In my read, he is confirming a statement of fact he has deduced leading up to that line.
     
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  5. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    And "In that case, they are not the same." does not sound strange to me at all. Note, I stuck a comma in there. :)

    It is entirely up to you if you wish to keep the then. I would use it sparingly, and only if I felt there was a gain in making a character's voice distinct. The others are not wrong in that it can be removed. But if you stuck a question mark, he sounds uncertain.

    I only took exception to the fact that ending with a then must be a question. In my every day conversation, I have heard it come up. It's usually a matter of fact assertion.
     
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  6. dylan22

    dylan22 Member

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  7. dylan22

    dylan22 Member

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    doublepost
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2016
  8. dylan22

    dylan22 Member

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    Thank you so much.
    Would something like this sound normal for you?

    A: Someone just told me they are different boys. For a while I thought Jeff and Dean are the same person. But in that case, they are not the same.
    B: No, they aren't. They are two different boys.
     
  9. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    I see I might have confused you. My example was to point out the implied meaning and the sentence itself would be correct. However, it doesn't mean it will slot into your existing dialogue gracefully. But if I was to put it in word for word, I suppose it would go something like this:

    A: For a while I thought Jeff and Dean were the same person, but someone just told me they are different boys. In that case, they are not the same.
    B: No, they aren't. They are two different boys.


    But really, I think you are using redundant language. I'd rejig it for a snappier read.

    A: For a while I thought Jeff and Dean were the same person, but someone just told me that was not the case.
    B: Correct. They are different boys.


    Note: I suck with tense but I hope it helps and I haven't made things more confusing for you.
     
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  10. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    This is a good point. The original A: line states the evidence for the conclusion, and then states the conclusion. But there's no need to state the conclusion when the evidence makes the conclusion so obvious. The restatement makes the line feel a little bit stilted. Your rewrite of the A: line fixes that problem.
     
  11. dylan22

    dylan22 Member

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    thank you, but okay, wait I rewrote something:

    Context: The conversation is about two boys with the same name (James) and person A thought they are the same person (because of the same name)

    A: I always think about my James. But they are not the same then.
    B: No, they aren't. I'm sorry. I wish I knew yours but I don't. They are two different boys.

    Would that conversation be correct?
     
  12. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    non:

    A: I always think about my James. But then, he is not the same man as your James, or are they? My James, your James, perhaps they are different men, and not the same. My James and your James are both men, and they are different men, but yet they share the same name...and I am confused on this issue.

    B: No, they are not the same man. I'm sorry. I wish I never spoke to you. I thought I knew you, and your James, but evidently I do not. They are two quite different boys, mmmm, boys...
     
  13. dylan22

    dylan22 Member

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    Thank you, but somehow that doesn't really fit very well in my conversation. Are there any mistakes in my conversation that can't be left without correction?
     
  14. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    A: I always think about my James. But they are not the same then.
    B: No, they aren't. I'm sorry. I wish I knew yours but I don't. They are two different boys.

    ...in speech, in a film, audio - your version might be perfect.

    But in one sweep of the eye - or - reading only one time - this is too difficult - or 'dense,' or awkward...for an English speaker.
     
  15. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    I agree on the stilted comment, and I was trying to encourage Dylan away from it. But he would know best the effect he wishes to achieve, which I had read to be not coming across unsure. This would be fair enough and an ending of 'then' could be used in this instance without a question mark.

    I was really defending then at the end and Wayjors posts rang a strong bell with me. I didn't want it struck from the WF language books. ;)

    Now, Dylan, I'm going to bow out. I must admit, I don't understand why you are insistent on keeping some of the text, which is unnecessary. But one last stab to help. I think, if you really want to use 'then', it could go something like this:

    A: That's not my James, so they are not the same then.
    B: No, they aren't. They are different boys. I wish I knew yours, but I don't. I'm sorry.


    Or whatever you arrangement you wish. Good luck!
     
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  16. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    @matwoolf - don't think I did not catch your Friday freebie like comment. :p
     
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  17. dylan22

    dylan22 Member

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    Thank you, I will sleep over it.

    But the part "I wish I knew yours" is okay? I was unsure about that but somehow like it.
     
  18. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    ...when I write...

    first draft - 'I wish I knew yours...'

    2nd draft - 'I wish I knew your James...'

    11th draft - 'I wish I knew your James. Such a different a different fellow to my James, yet somehow they shared...mmm...attributes...and...'

    s'pose CLARITY is key.
     
  19. dylan22

    dylan22 Member

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    But you think "I wish I knew yours" sounds native? I am just wondering cause there aren't any Google hits.
     
  20. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    it reads like somebody with a perfect understanding of English...but that's not the same...

    for me...often I blurt out words on the web....to fix these words in a work of fiction is a 'process' that takes a little effort.
     
  21. dylan22

    dylan22 Member

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    I am sorry, but I don't understand your answer? I am no native speaker though, Sorry.

    To clarify my question:
    I want to know if this dialogue is native English, or is this werid?

    A: I always think about my James.
    B: I wish I knew yours, but I don't.
     
  22. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    You can keep going around in circles really and then it would depend on the full dialogue passage. I like to take out as many unnecessary words as possible but still allow the dialogue to be natural and snappy. So if I tweak AGAIN (and this is the last time), it could go:

    A: That's not my James, so they are not the same boy then.
    B: No, they aren't. I wish I knew your James, but I don't. I'm sorry.


    And it can go on and on... Hopefully you or someone can come up with something you like.

    Edit: I feel each statement you spend words on need to add something, Dylan. That's why I rearranged as I did. The worst dialogue for me is when there's unnecessary repetition or going back and forth. It becomes a tedious read then.
     
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  23. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    A: I always think about my James.
    B: I wish I knew yours, but I don't.

    ...it reads fine, but you need to write in a more sophisticated way in books for people to understand.

    ...On TV, in your mind, it reads quite lovely:

    A: I always think about my James [throaty voice].

    PAUSE

    B: I wish....[sip of wine] I knew yours, [crestfallen]...but I don't[sob].

    THE END
     
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  24. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    It all makes sense now. You're only a writer in between acting gigs. If you have any youtube audition vids, send.
     
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  25. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    The point Matt is trying to make I think is that although this is correct in formal English, it isn't the way most native speakers would actually speak - it sounds like a foreigner trying to speak English with the aid of a phrase book

    (incidentally you sleep on an idea, not over it )
     
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