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  1. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Hobby Lobby hypocrisy: they are so busted.

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by GingerCoffee, Apr 4, 2014.

    Hobby Lobby's Hypocrisy: The Company's Retirement Plan Invests in Contraception Manufacturers

    They really should have done some some skeleton-in-the-closet cleaning before embarking on this political venture masquerading as religious beliefs.
     
  2. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
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    Duchess-Yukine-Suoh Girl #21 Contributor

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    The closest Hobby Lobby to where I live is an hour away, so I've never been in one. But I think that your political or religious beliefs shouldn't play a part in others political or religious beliefs. If you don't believe in emergency contraception, don't buy it for yourself, but let others do what they feel is best!
     
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  3. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    It's a bit more complicated then that. Hobby Lobby has to provide a health care plan for it's employees. The question isn't about buying contraception for yourself or not, it's about being forced to buy it for other people.
     
  4. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
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    Duchess-Yukine-Suoh Girl #21 Contributor

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    Exactly. You should give other people the choice.
     
  5. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    Why should they have to give other people the choice to do something they don't believe in?
     
  6. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
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    Duchess-Yukine-Suoh Girl #21 Contributor

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    Because it's another person's choice, not their own.
     
  7. minstrel
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    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Same reason I have to pay taxes to fund wars I don't believe in.
     
  8. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    Doesn't any and all the money we spend or pay for in taxes go to somewhere we don't believe in if we go far enough down the rabbit hole?
     
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  9. minstrel
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    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Yep. I don't like the word "tax." I wish they'd just call it a bill for government services. It's not my money any more than the money I pay the electric utility is mine. I need the juice to keep the lights on, so I have to pay the bill. I don't get to decide what the utility does with the money. I'd prefer if they sold me electricity from clean-energy power plants, but I don't get to decide that. Maybe they have a racist neo-Nazi on their payroll - I don't get to decide that either, but some of my money ends up in his pocket.

    We don't get to decide where our money goes. We don't get to decide ultimately whose bellies it fills or whose medicine is paid for. Hobby Lobby is in the same boat.
     
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  10. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    What if everyone told you that you needed to pay for your employee's vaccines. But they're vaccines against unicorns. You don't believe in unicorns, should you have to pay?

    EDIT: Please be aware that I don't personally believe the argument I am making, but I'm trying to explain its possition to a 13 year old.
     
  11. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    This argument of the right wing distorts the facts the way one distorts statistics to support an argument. You can define things differently and get a different picture.

    Typically, the employer doesn't buy the employee's health insurance and then give it to them. The employer pays all or part of the employee's insurance premium. You can demonstrate this in a number of ways but the biggest one is the employer has no access to the employee's medical record, nor any direct say in the care provided. As such this is like telling someone what they can spend their paycheck on.

    However, in the case of Hobby Lobby, they are a step closer to buying the insurance directly because they are self-insured. Large companies like Hobby Lobby sometimes act as the insurer rather than paying for insurance from an insurer. That's one reason the owner's Libertarian ideology feathers were ruffled. The government was adding more regulation to the insurance branch of Hobby Lobby's corporation.

    But even in the case of self insurance, the hypocrisy of saying you don't want to buy birth control for an employee but you don't have any issue investing in companies that produce that same birth control is evidence their real gripe is being told the product of their self insurance business was to be further regulated.

    They claim they are against something on religious grounds but Mother Jone's reporters have shown Hobby Lobby is really just trying to avoid additional regulation.
     
  12. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    This is exactly the point I meant. Take for example if you like Oreo cookies. Well Nabisco makes Oreos so then every pack of Oreos you buy goes to help pay for the salary of a CEO that might like to go to Tijuana and buy hookers and do heroin. So in a round about way your money is helping to pay for hookers and heroin, despite the fact that might be totally against everything you believe in. That just unfortunately is the belly of the beast when it comes to capitalism.
     
  13. Fitzroy Zeph
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    Fitzroy Zeph Contributing Member Contributor

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    What if you believed in hanging the ignorant?
     
  14. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    You should know that some of the medications that Hobby Lobby is refusing to cover include the Plan B pill that Hobby Lobby considers to be an abortant*. You joke about it killing ignorant people, but to Hobby Lobby you are literally killing people.


    *that is scientifically not the case, but whatever.
     
  15. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
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    Yes. If people need the vaccines against unicorns, even if I don't believe in it, they need them, so I will provide it. Even if I had no family, I would still give my employees at least two days off to spend with their family.

    EDIT: You don't need to "explain" it to me. By law, on this site, I'm a legal adult in most ways, since I'm too old for COPPA. I refuse to be talked down to.
     
  16. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
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    But it's scientifically not the case, which changes the argument significantly.
     
  17. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    These people aren't driven by science, that's what I'm trying to explain to you. They truly truly believe that these medicines kill people. There's no science that will explain it for them, there's no rationality that will sway them.

    You are requiring them to finance murder.

    That is why they've gone to the supreme court.
     
  18. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
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    Wait, you weren't agreeing with them?

    But from our perspective, we can see the fallacy, right?
     
  19. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    I want to be clear, I am totally against unicorn abortions.
     
  20. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    If a fallacy exists or doesn't we perceive it. That's pretty much the most that can be said on the matter.

    The Supreme Court case will have nothing to do with any of that either, the question before them is whether or not a person can make religious decisions for a company that he owns. That is a very different argument.
     
  21. GingerCoffee
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    If that's really the case though, as opposed to faking a religious pretense. How could they in good conscience invest in the manufacture of those same drugs?

    I get the religious argument, (though they are ignoring several options), but the evidence is they are lying about it.
     
  22. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    If someone is a conscientious objector by their religion, they can't use that excuse to not pay taxes during wartime.

    The right wing's focus on religious freedom is hypocritical on a dozen levels.
     
  23. stevesh
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    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    As so often happens, I think the point of this thread got buried in the partisan politics. The point GingerCoffee made was that Hobby Lobby invests in companies that make contraceptives. Planned Parenthood's hand-wringing aside, investigating what investments a particular mutual fund invests in can be a time and money consuming exercise whose results change on a daily basis. The article I (and, I suspect, the OP) read included this sentence, which strangely didn't make it into the original post:

    "The pharmaceutical companies are among dozens of holdings by each mutual fund, and represent just a fraction of the overall investment."

    I have no reason to believe that the Hobby Lobby owners aren't sincere in their religious beliefs, and neither do any of you.
     
  24. GingerCoffee
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    There are some simple options for companies that want to avoid certain investments for moral reasons. I'm not buying the 'it was too hard' excuse. Has Hobby Lobby said that was the reason?

    I have reason to believe they are more interested in their political ideology than their religious commitments and the hypocrisy is indeed a reason to conclude that.
     
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