Holding doors and such

Down here in the south, it's courtesy to hold doors open, regardless of sex.

 

I'm living in the South now (Florida), and I also grew up in the north in Chicago, and I'd say that holding doors was the norm in both regions. When I say holding doors I mean checking behind you, and if anyone's within a reasonable distance, you simply wait an extra moment with the door propped open until the person reaches the door, rather than letting it slam in his or her face. I don't view this as desperation or social ineptitude, just common courtesy.

 

Yes, those could be called many a name... feminist does not, perhaps, quite cut it.

Nothing at all wrong with equality.

 

That's obnoxious. Sure, it's nice to be thanked, but if you're holding a door open just for the visceral pleasure of being thanked, you shouldn't be doing it to begin with.

I hold doors for people. I've never been told not to.

The anti-feminist sentiment is this thread is kind of amusing. In a bad way.

 

Exactly. I mean, when I spend time hating men, I don't call it being feminist. I call it being a word I'm probably not supposed to use in this forum. Besides, anyone who hates all men is just a bigot.

There's nothing wrong with men, they're human too. They deserve equal rights just as much as women.

This thread makes me wonder if there is someone out there who purposefully holds doors open, just to let them close right in others' faces. It seems like a lot of people have issues about doors--or strong opinions about them. There has to be someone like that out there. Even I have the urge to do it after reading this thread, just to see the expression. I won't do it though, I'm one of those desperate, socially inept people who likes to pick up things for elderly people. Sigh--I miss my girl scout years.

EDIT:

I agree.

 

Yeah. 'Bigot' is a better word.

 

Yeah. I was just joking about hating men. IMO hating any group of people usually turns out to be foolish.

If the tables were turned, and someone made a joke about hating women, I would be offended. But that's because there's thousands of years of bloody history featuring horrendous crimes of misogyny--so it just seems more serious to me.

Really though--I agree that men and women might be wired slightly differently, but we're all people. Everyone is wired slightly differently anyway, regardless of sex, IMO. Men are great, and so are feminists--especially feminist men.

 

I grew up holding doors for everybody. And everybody else did it too. Nobody demanded it and nobody complained about it; it was just done that way.

Ten years ago I was in Tokyo. I rode a train to work every morning and it was incredibly crowded. But one day I was going to the job site in the middle of the day, and the train car was mostly empty. There were a few young men - early twenties, I think, fit and athletic - sprawling themselves all over every available seat. At one stop, an elderly woman got on. None of these young men budged. I got up and offered her my seat, and she got a very surprised look on her face and, after a moment, took it. The young men burst out laughing at me.

I was traveling with a colleague then who had a lot more Japanese experience than I had, and he said "You have to understand that there's no such thing as chivalry here. You just reduced yourself by giving that woman your seat."

I'm happier in North America - I don't have to feel like a schmuck for being nice.

 

I don't know if a couple of pricks are a good gauge for social norms. People have their feet and bags on seats on the metro all the time here in ny, but most riders have some form of etiquette.

 

Interesting, Minstrel. From what I also understand about Japan, (now this is just what I've heard, as I've never been there), smiling at people (especially in places of work) is considered a sign of weakness and/or rude. Just cultural differences, I guess. But I really wouldn't fit it in over there, either - for me, being courteous and smiling and saying hi to people is just what I do, it's how I was raised. I just like being friendly towards people, and I agree, I don't want to feel like a schmuck for being nice LOL.

 

I think there's quite a range of thoughts here, some quite interesting, and many not negative at all. Citing some examples of people with perhaps dubious social skills doesn't make one anti-anything.

 

The term "feminist" is too broad for the discussion in and of itself. There are numerous schools of thought within feminism, and I've heard some of the nastiest arguments of my life from one group denigrating another.

You typically find sentiment against men among radical feminists, as I noted above. Not among all of them, of course, but when I do encounter it I'm usually not shocked to learn the person shares the views of radical feminism. The whole premise of that particular branch of feminism is that it is not due to legal protections, or lack thereof, or legal rights, or lack thereof, that women are in the position they are in, but instead due to the overarching patriarchy built on men's oppression of women. Some elements that can even be defined as a separate group within radical feminism view all men as oppressors, whether any given male has undertaken oppressive action or not. They believe it is inherent in the system.

Sorry to get outside of the scope of the thread, but you can't easily use the word "feminist" as a blanket term to describe the group, imo.

 

Exactly.

I didn't see anything "anti" in my post, just saying flatly how the folks around my place do things.

Of course, maybe I should've clarified. We men (at least the men I've known) don't go bounding ahead of women to open the doors. If someone's holding the door and a woman happens to be right there, of course he'd hold it open for her. Same if it were another dude.

It's just politeness for politeness' sake, nothing to do with whether that person is a man or a woman.

 

^
Yes, and that last sentence is what I think is the crux of this thread (at least for me).

If anything, the examples mentioned here showed an anti-men sentiment... but they are, again, specific examples.

Not to beat a dead horse though... as you were.

 

Quoted for emphasis.

I just wish to point out that I used the word 'Feminist' purely to half-quote the girl I was talking about, who happily says to almost any man she comes across she is a 'Man-hating feminist'. I was pretty much quoting directly there and I don't label feminists in such a stupid way myself.

 

I think of the term "feminism" as being very broad too. It's kind of like the term Christian. There are radical Christian groups like the Klu Klux Klan, but I would never use the term "Christian" interchangeably with "KKK." The KKK is a christian group, but it lies within the broader group labeled "Christian."

Similarly, radical feminism lies within the broader group of feminism. For some reason, I am hearing John Cleese's voice in my head as I type--narrating. God I must be tired.

If you use the Marriam Webster definition of feminism, "the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes ", then the term doesn't seem any messier to use than the term Christianity. Although I'll concede that Christianity is probably more completely and thoroughly defined than feminism.

I haven't met any radical, man-hating feminists in real life. But after having to read Mina Loy for school, I believe in them. (Edit: I believe in them, as in "I believe in Santa clause" not, "I believe in communism")

 

Yes, this is a good point. The term does have very broad applications that are perfectly valid. In some cases, however, it makes sense to be more specific.

Honestly, I have only met a handful of what people would term man-hating feminists. They happened to be radical feminists, but by no means have all radical feminists I've known been that way. While I described the girlfriend I mentioned above as more of a liberal feminist, the truth is that at her core I think she was more aligned with the radical feminist philosophy, but she did not believe their goals or methods were reasonable if you want to effect real change. And she was also one of the nicest people I've ever met, whether she was dealing with men, women, or cats and dogs

 

It's slightly different to what you're talking about, but sometimes elderly people get offended if you offer your seat on the bus, or offer to help them if they look like they're struggling with their bags/or the little machines in Argos (actually got shouted at once for it). Personally, I thought it was just common courtesy to give up your seat on the bus for someone who is elderly - but apparently some people take offense.

Personally, I like it when a lad opens a door for me, gives me the seat, generally acts like a gentleman. Maybe that's the way I've been brought up, but I don't see anything wrong with it at all. I don't expect it either, but it is always nice.

I have to both agree and disagree with this. On one hand, in countries such as Britain and America (and other developed countries), feminism is largely redundant – there are obviously laws in place to protect the rights of women in the workplace, for example, and generally people in westernised countries seem to accept women as equal to men.

However, in less developed countries, such as the majority of those in Africa, feminism is something which is unbelievably important. Even in a country such as Saudi Arabia, which now has a considerably developed economy, when half of the population are treat like second class citizens, can you really say they are developed? So no, feminism isn’t “redundant nowadays” in large parts of the world, and I actually think there needs to be a greater focus on the rights of women in many developing nations.

 

I live in Canada, the maritimes to be exact. Where I live it's practically disgraceful not to hold the door for people. When someone doesn't hold the door for me when I am right behind them, I really do notice it, and I tend to think that they are a bit of a jerk.

When Americans come here, they are all amazed at how courteous we are.

 

Lol well I'm American and I don't get amazed by courtesy because I was raised to be courteous. I do inwardly get offended if someone lets a door slam on me or doesn't return a greeting, that's just how I am.

 

Yes, in the early days of Women's Liberation. A co-worker bristled when I held the door open for her, and asked, "Would you have held the door open for Dan?"

I answered, "Yes. I don't let doors close in people's faces."

She relented.

 

I'm from Alberta and I always hold doors for people no matter what. I was raised that way. And when I dn't notice someone walking in behind me I alway apoligies. But I was raised with traditional manners (I don't even put my elbows on the table well eating).

On this 'Feminist' issue should be just focased in developing countries. Its still an issue. Especially on the hidden poverty of these developed countries.

Here's a list of big issues in North America (other then obesity)
Teen Pegnancies (it also usually blamed mostly on the girl too)
Rape
And theres still many men who take advantage of woman and treat woman a slaves
And many girls submit to guys too easily

Now whats the answer to all these problems? Education!
Well thats my opinion anyways

 

It's a little eery to me how often discussions I have in real life are quickly replicated on the forum...

I can't imagine getting upset at someone holding the door open for me. Like many others have said, I hold the door open for men or women, and so do most of the people I know...it would be pretty dick just to let it close in their face. I've never had anyone get mad at me for it.

I will say, though, that when I was working, it really irritated me when male customers would make a big production over me lifting things. I understand if you want to help me because something is heavy, but I often had people who would rush to take moderate-sized boxes from me or make a huge deal if they saw me carrying something, like they were amazed that I could lift it. Drove me nuts.

 

I think it's odd someone would get offended over that. There's a difference between being treated equal and being treated with common courtesy. Common courtesy extends to both genders as far as I'm concerned. I do believe in equal rights for women. I also think some women take it way too far by finding things like that offensive. That's fine if it's not in your taste but finding it offensive? I just don't understand that. I hold doors for people a lot and people hold doors for me. It's like smiling at a stranger to me. Since I moved to a bigger area I usually get scowls when I smile. lol

Especially if someone is elderly, disabled, or hauling kids. I have no problem holding a door for them regardless of their gender or mine.

 

Who wouldn't like it. That's why I also try and do these kinda things in return, as said, for people of both sexes.

The rest of your post was excellent too.

They probably meant well and that's just how they were raised. I encountered similar in the past, and just kept carrying on. Soon they found there was a bit of strength in these hands here, too.