Holding doors and such

The BASIS for women objecting to having doors held open for them is legitimate. I'm somewhat pleased that few people remember when women were treated as helpless and in need of a man's protection to survive. The attitude referred to as male chauvinism was real, and women struggled to free themselves from those attitudes.

A man's wife was often referred to as "the little woman", almost in the same category as a cherished pet. Women really did have to make the point that they could open doors all by themselves, and even had thoughts in their heads that didn't center around a good strong man.

 

Women in my opinion should be treated like she can handle herself. Women aren't cowards. Yes, some squeak at the sight of Bugs, but everybody has Fears, right? So that doesn't matter. Women haven't been getting the respect and treatment they deserve until the early 20th Century, but even today sexism is pretty common. It' very sad actually. Im only 14 and i realize Women aren't tools or meat. Some Girls are so strong they could survive on thier own. I hate it when a guy acts like the woman can't survive without him, it makes me sick. Im a guy and i even admit some of the people at my school get treated like that all the time and i don't like one bit of it.

If i ever had a girlfriend, i would NEVER treat her like that. EVER. Sexism, needs to end soon. Even though it never will. When guys say: Go make me a sandwich!" towards a woman, i reply back "I make my own Sandwiches. "

Is it really that hard to treat A girl right? I stopped watching G4 especially because of the constant sex jokes and how they treated women on that channel.

 

Maybe we just see it differently were I come from, but we see sexist jokes as banter, because we know the majority of people don't take it seriously. At fourteen, a lot of lads are t**ts, so whether it's being sexist, or just mean in another way, they're gunna do it.

Same as sexism works both ways (which a lot of people seem to forget). So called "positive discrimination" puts men at an unfair disadvantage when they may have been more qualified for the job position. The Boots adverts play on sexism towards men, using the cliche that they are whimps when they have "man flu" and the woman is the true survivor of the family. I hate that if you make a sexist remark about a woman, you suddenly have a group of angry feminist supporting people saying that is wrong, but you can be as sexist towards men as you like.

 

I hold doors open for men if they're coming in behind me. So if women want to be treated equally, they'll have to understand that I'm going to hold the door for them as well

@Heather: I agree with you regarding the joke issue.

 

I think that sexism is a lot of the time encouraged by the specific gender. for example - men encourage this norm in society in which we need to pay and provide. I believe we all wish for equality but when it comes to our daily obligations in our personal life we feel obligated to act otherwise. Its sometimes hard for men to ask their girlfriend to pay the bill because we feel obligated to such a task. I've been several times confronted for believing theres nothing wrong for me as a student to not be able to pay on expensive dates.

 

Yea, I agree completely with this - I've had the discussion with my dad several times. I've grown up with a very "traditional" style family, my mam left work when she got pregnant and my dad has always provided, and sees it in a way that he should provide. And in the same respect, my boyfriend really doesn't like it when I try and pay for us, even something as simple as me buying us a couple of coffees, and it has caused arguements before. I think it's up to you how you want to handle it in your relationships with people though, I made it clear to him that when I have money, I am capable of buying our dinner, and I will do that.

 

I meant to say very rarely do not take it seriously like that. Most of my good friends who treat girls right make jokes like that all the time, and they don't mean a single thing out of it. Im just talking about the ones who actually mean it- and treat women like meat. I find it so wrong. So, very wrong...

 

Thats an atitude that should be more encuraged nowadays. Equality in a realtionship for me means that theres no sides. Theres just us. And if the couple wishes to assume roles it should be their own choice which role each of them take. I cant finance many things now, my girlfirend is more flexible financially and so sometimes she pays the bill. It doesnt make me less a man then anyone else.

 

Many of the gender jokes that have friends doubling over and slapping their knees leave me cold. Not necessarily discusted, but certainly not amused. Many of the jokes are based on exaggeration of the gender stereotypes, which to me are ludicrous to begin with.

 

Absolutely. I think such things should be shared, if both people work and make money. It's only fair.

Someone mentioned dating and men paying for everything. Again, I think this comes down to mutual consideration. Would a man not like to be bought a drink, a meal, the male equivalent of flowers (whatever that is) as well? It's the token of doing something nice, not the money in itself. So it stands to reason (imo) that many would.


As for jokes, bad taste or no, I think most everything is fair game there.

 

I've always figured whoever did the inviting (to dinner, for drinks, whatever) should pay. I invite a friend out, I pay. If they invite me - they pay. (Unless of course, it's a 'go dutch' thing.)

 

^
Makes sense.

Now, that is assuming, of course, people are not like the one I went on my first ever 'date' with.

As in, meeting in a place where food is served, and him not wanting to have anything, thereby making me feel quite awkward, and not ordering food either... I knew that instant this would not be a pleasant sort of occasion. I was quite on the money.

 

Same with racial jokes and blonde jokes. They are just not funny to me.

 

I agree. And I have to add that a world without feminism is a freakishly frightening place, especially for female authors.

There are a lot more important things to be outraged about, IMO, than women who don't want men to open doors for them.

 

A lot of the problem stems from our own rejection of nature, which is based in both societal organization and in religious roots (much of Western religion placing man over nature, or seeing nature as evil or sinful).

In hunter-gatherer societies, for example, you don't typically find this sort of ingrained patriarchy. Partly this is due to reverence for women and their relation to the powers of life, both through bringing new life into the world directly and their role in gathering foods. Such societies might be considered more "primitive" in a certain sense, but in terms of gender equality they tended to be pretty good.

As things move forward and you get agriculture and domestication, the shift in power unbalances in favor of the male, and over time you get a patriarchal system. When this is reinforced by religious thinking, it becomes even more entrenched.

Many of the things that enrage some are fairly well fixed in the societal system, and often by both men and women. Reinventing the system entirely is probably near impossible, but technological advance at least has the potential to take us back to a more egalitarian system. Ironically, if you think you're getting "back to nature" by turning aside technology and moving back to a system where more of us plant crops and raise animals, you're really moving back to the system that gave us patriarchy to begin with.

 

I don't believe in moving backwards in regards to technology, though if I am pressed I will admit that I think we should be conserving our energy sources and technology and using them in a more environmentally sustainable way.

I think it's funny that you bring up the denigration of nature because I just wrote a scene in which my female were-animal protagonist has a discussion about the same thing with another male character. In some ways, the fact that she is a were-animal is symbolic of the dehumanization of ethnic minorities and women. She even brings up the issue of body hair and argues that she doesn't shave her legs because it symbolizes the suppression of nature by the patriarchy (it's a discussion she remembers from college--she doesn't hold such rigid views anymore). I was trying to figure out how to give the male character realistic views on these issues--so this thread was really helpful because i got to hear a lot of men's views on the issue of gender hierarchy.

Personally, I see the postmodern/modern era as a time in which the patriarchy is being challenged. In response, a lot more diverse voices have leaked into the literature. Voices from various ethnic groups and women. I think it's a good thing (hopeful even)--even though some people feel unsettled by the lack of rigid religious and social structure.

 

Maybe it's because I've just got back from holiday, or maybe it's American English, but I'm puzzled by the 'holding doors' thing. There is a huge difference for me between a) holding a door, especially a swing door, for the person following so that it doesn't hit them after you've passed through, and b) OPENING a door for someone and letting that person pass before.

The b) scenario can be irritating (yes, I guess I'd say I am a feminist i.e. seeking and expecting equality) if it is accompanied by an ingratiating swagger which just screams 'always ready to help out the little woman' and when it is partly used as an excuse to give an ogling once over. I'm thankful to say this sort of behaviour is rare these days but it was sadly common in the 1970s when feminists objected to it. Otherwise, I have no problems with it.

In the last week of my holiday, during my time in the UK, it really struck me that people were very polite and helpful--to each other, not only to me (I travelled on trains a few times). They were lifting cases, giving up seats, giving directions and generally speaking very quietly and politely to each other. It was hard to believe London was a riot zone only weeks before.

 

^
I'm not American, by any means.

I guess my example was b) but then option a) was discussed plenty too, so... either way.

 

Yeah, American here, and I hadn't really made any distinction - a door's a door. And I'm sure not going to try and guess why some stranger is opening one for me. Well, unless they're pulling a knife or something at the same time

 

@ VM80- I don't think it matters if you're American, French, German, Italian, Japanese, British, Russian, Chinese, whatever. A door is a door and the polite thing to do is to not slam the door in the person's face. Unless that person suddenly whips out a knife or a gun and points it at you, you should have absolutely nothing to worry about.

What did that big bearded guy say? Do unto others?

 

Anyone who is offended by someone else doing them a courtesy needs to take a moment to reflect and re-evaluate things. IMO.

 

^ This.

Honestly...

It's..a...door! Just don't slam it in someone's face when they're right behind you!!

Someone holding a door open doesn't mean anything else but that person being nice. Doesn't mean they think you're somehow inferior in some way. They're...just holding a door open.

 

No matter what views anyone may have on having a door held open for them, no matter whether they find it somehow offensive - any conscious thinker would realize that the "door holder" is doing it simply out of courtesy. If they kick up a fuss, memorize their face and then make a note never to hold the door open for them again, while very pointedly doing it to others nearby =P

 

To be honest, i don't really find them funny at all.

 

It's nice, really, to see that the younger generation is completely unaware of the more unpleasant feeling behind a MAN making a point of going over/standing back to open a door for a WOMAN. I can assure you that the earlier feminists were not hysterical reactionaries--they were sometimes quite right in the way they interpreted this behaviour. It was less a matter of 'manners' and more yet another tiresome way of MEN asserting superiority over women, and it was/is embarrassing when the woman was with a group of all male work colleagues, putting her somehow into a different category.

I'm not talking about situations when a man or woman opens a door for a man or woman who has their arms full of books or when the door will swing back and hit him/her, etc, etc.