Holding doors and such

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by VM80, Aug 31, 2011.

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  1. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    There is a difference between a kind gesture and a creepy gesture so a guy can oggle. Very few people do the second, at least few people in my city.
     
  2. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    Well, I'm 56 (and female) so definitely not part of the younger generation - and I went through the whole women's lib thing. And I still had no problem with men opening doors for me, or seating me at a table, or any of the other 'niceties'. There are things done out of the 'be polite' habit many were raised with, and there are things done deliberately to make women feel less. You can't know what the motivation is unless you know the person. And believe me, when I knew someone was being condescending, they heard about it. I just didn't assume that from the git-go.
     
  3. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

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    Absolutely. That's why I said 'sometimes', and, earlier, 'it can be irritating'. In other words, it isn't always.
     
  4. Mallory

    Mallory Contributor Contributor

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    I just see door-holding, seat-offering etc as polite gestures. I always hold the door if there's someone close behind me, whether they are a guy or girl, kid or adult, etc. Likewise, I appreciate it and say thanks when someone does it for me.

    What DOES piss me off is when I hold a door open for someone, and they not only fail to say thank you (or give a friendly smile, or any type of equivalent friendly acknowledgement), but act like they're entitled and oblivious. For example, if they walk super slowly and can't be bothered to look up from the text they're engrossed in typing. Once, I had this girl actually stop in the doorway while I was holding it open for her, so she could respond to a text...I just let it shut on her and kept walking.
     
  5. evelon

    evelon Active Member

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    London's a big city and PARTS of it were subjected to extensive riots. So were parts of Birmingham, Manchester and other cities. Thousands of people were involved in the riots, but millions of people live in our cities and very few of them were involved in any of the riots. No-one should be surprised that, despite the riots, Britain is, in general, a safe and friendly place to be.

    Following the riots people formed clean-up groups and help groups to assist those affected - that's the true nature of the beast. Forget the idiots who let the country and themselves down and think instead of the people who work hard to maintain, often under difficult conditions, a country to be proud of.

    That's not to say we haven't got some 100% plonkers! But we've got lots of people, including our young people, although if you take notice of the papers they're all a bunch of losers, who are the best the world has to offer.

    That's my drum banging done for this year.
     
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  6. Wryture

    Wryture New Member

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    It's just as bad when people just hold the door to patronise you, instead of helping you... The real problem is always "something else". I just go along with it.
     
  7. Radrook

    Radrook Banned Contributor

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    There are even some people who think that when you pass by in front of them and say excuse me it's because you are afraid of them. So they respond with a gruff, guttural, ill-humored "Uhuh!" As if to say:

    "No problem this time but just you make sure you don't overstep the line!"

    Sometimes it just doesn't pay to be courteous.

    I once opened the apartment building door for some people who were ringing for entrance. As I stood there waiting for them to come in they totally ignored me. In fact, one lady in the group had a sadistic smile on her face as she savored my embarassment.
     
  8. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Really?

    I have never regretted being courteous. If the other person doesn't appreciate it, should you feel less charitable? Would you feel better if you had offered hostility instead?
     
  9. tristan.n

    tristan.n Active Member

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    I think it's nice when guys hold doors open for anyone. I work at a paint store and even though I can lift five gallon buckets like the guys, I have to say it's rather nice when they offer to do it. Most of the time I refuse because I want to learn to do things myself, but I'm never rude about it, and I always thank them for the offer. I think feminists as a whole would be taken more seriously if the radical ones could just tone it down a little and not be so touchy. I mean come on. Not all men are beer-bellied idiots, and not all women are emotional man-haters, so anyone who thinks of one gender as less than the other is arrogant donkeyhole, in my opinion.
     
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  10. aimi_aiko

    aimi_aiko New Member

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    Hmm...I've never had this happen before. For those I've held the door open for either thanked me or smiled and went on their way. Vise versa. I don't understand why anyone would be offended at common courtesy such as this. ?
     
  11. Islander

    Islander Contributor Contributor

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    I usually hold the door open if there's someone just behind me. I don't think anyone's ever been offended by it.

    Sometimes, I even open a door and let the person(s) behind me pass first. At my work, men do this for each other all the time, so I feel obliged to do the same.

    That being said, I like being extra corteous to women in social situations, for example, by carrying things and giving them more help than I'd give a man. It's a nice way to give and receive attention. It's more than common courtesy, but less than flirting. I think men and women do this a lot, even when they're not interested in a relationship.

    I can certainly understand why women are opposed to having the door opened for them if they live in a culture where men are supposed to take care of women and make the decisions for them. One thing can reinforce the other. However, it's not so easy for men to change the situation.
    First, men are often taught to be polite towards and protective of women, while at the same time being taught the contradictory ideal of treating them as equals.
    Second, men are often afraid of not being capable enough. Women don't like losers, not even feminist women. Helping a woman carry things or pay on a date are ways for a man to show they're capable.
     
  12. VM80

    VM80 Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think being polite and treating someone as equal are opposites. You make some good points though.

    Nice gestures should always be encouraged, and exchanged.
     
  13. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

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    This is why some of us get annoyed. 'Capable' of what? Why should we be compelled to accept 'protection'? It's like the mafia 'protecting' the neighbourhood! While I would never scowl or snap a nasty comment at a man who comes to a halt in front of me, then stands back and lets me through because he's been taught that women need to be treated totally differently from his other colleagues, I really do not appreciate this pointless behaviour, thanks all the same.
     
  14. Radrook

    Radrook Banned Contributor

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    Is encouraging evil charity?
    For example, would it have been a virtue to continue to be nice to Hitler despite his obvious lack of appreciation for niceness? What effect do you think that would have had on his personality? The effect it had is recorded history. He became even more vicious and tagged those being patient and charitable as weak. Some persons negatively thrive on that sort of thing in fact. So being deontologically charitable is a mistake just as being deontologically anything else is a mistake because rule-thinking, though well-intentioned, very often paves the proverbial road to the proverbial hell due to its inherent rule-based inflexibility.

    BTW
    How really charitable are we if we don't take the feeling of the person that we are attempting to be charitable to into consideration? If we ignore the posibility that opening the door for that person might offend his dignity and wound and humiliate that person-how charitable are we really? Charity if not motivated by our consideration of how the other person might feel is no chartity at all. If I invariably hold the door for women regardles of how they feel, or if a woman holds the door for an older man regardless of how that man might feel, or any other well-intended charity done unthinkingly, then how charitable am I really? In fact, a case can be made that I am cruel and sellfish since other people's feelings are not my priority as ong as I feel OK with myself.
     
  15. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Number one indicator someone is losing an argument: comparisons to Hitler or the Nazis ;)

    Seriously, though, Cogito is right. Being courteous is sufficient unto itself. It doesn't have to be appreciated by the recipient. Musing over whether Hitler would have appreciated courtesy as some sort of counter to the idea that general, every day courtesy is a good thing (whether appreciated or not) seems to me to miss the point.
     
  16. Heather

    Heather New Member

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    I actually completely agree with this. Rightly or wrongly, if a lad asks me out on a date, I sort of expect him to pay the firs time. I know it isn't right, and why should the man have to pay for me, but then when I'm in the situation, I sort of expect it, because that's what blokes do. I went on a date once where the lad didn't pay, we went halfs, and it surprised me (especially since he'd asked me out), and a lot of other people I mentioned it too said it surprised them too, so I know it's not just my attitude.

    Rightly or wrongly, sexism still exists in small doses in certain societies. Men are expected to pay and to carry the bags for a woman - I actually think it is more unfair on the man, the woman seems to be getting the good deal in all of this. Not exactly encouraging the women's lib movement here, but if a bloke wants to buy my dinner, or carry my bags, well then more-fool-him, I'm gunna take up that opportunity with pleasure.
     
  17. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I don't think you'll ever entirely eliminate differing perceptions of male and female sexes in society. The fundamental reality is that there are physical differences between the two. You can't cover the differences up with fancy language and expect people to be fooled. The trick, however, is equalizing society's value system so that these differences aren't seen as either more or less valuable with respect to one another, but rather simply as different. The realization that differences are strengths, and that you can have equality without being the same, is the end goal, imo.
     
  18. VM80

    VM80 Contributor Contributor

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    Quite. If a man offers to do these kinds of things for me, I'd quite like to return the favour on a different occasion. That's just me.

    Some people seem to be missing the point. Of course most any person can physically open doors, carry most bags or, these days, maybe pay for dinner. It's not about that.

    No sane man, even back in the day, would have doubted the first two. Many women did much hard physical work, after all.
     
  19. Islander

    Islander Contributor Contributor

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    Capable of anything, I guess. My girlfriend tells me she needs a man to impress her in some way - to be better than her at something. Not at everything, mind you - just something.
    She feels a little uncomfortable about earning more than I, and wants me to pay when we go out, even if we've been living together for many years and have a shared economy.

    Would you be perfectly okay with a man who earned less than you?
     
  20. tristan.n

    tristan.n Active Member

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    Yeesh... I wouldn't want my man to prove he was better than me at anything or pay for things just to show he can. Whether he intended it or not, it would make me feel way inferior, but maybe that's just me. Maybe this is why opposites attract, supposedly. You can each be good with different things and appreciate each other's help, rather than be in a competition with each other.

    I would love to make more money than my boyfriend, honestly, but that's just because I have a bad habit of shopping....
     
  21. VM80

    VM80 Contributor Contributor

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    Yes, if I loved him and knew he was hard-working. Not that my earnings are so much to shout about at this point..

    Do you find it uncomfortable too?
     
  22. Islander

    Islander Contributor Contributor

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    It's not a competition; I'm perfectly fine with her being better at some stuff, and she doesn't want to be better at everything.

    Not really. I wouldn't complain if she earned even more :)
     
  23. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

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    *hollow laugh* When my husband went bankrupt 12 yrs ago, I had to get a good job, fast. Up until recently I've earnt a lot more than him. I also had a very well paid job in London when I met the other serious love of my life, who was on a govnt course to learn furniture restoration...But then, I've never judged masculinity by the size of a man's wallet, if you get what I mean...
     
  24. Radrook

    Radrook Banned Contributor

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    What is your point? Platitudes are easy to mindlessly enunciate but when viewed under to cold glaring light of logic they are revealed for what they are. I suggest that if indeed you are attempting to refute ideas, you use the standard counterargument techniques. Saying "nay" simply means that you disagree but proves absolutely nothing at all in reference to the arguments themselves.

    Furthermore, I never said what you claim I said, that common courtesy should be dispensed with. I clearly said that it SOMETIMES doesn't pay and gave Hitler as an example of one of those times.


    https://www.writingforums.org/entry.php?b=17860

    ;)
     
  25. LaGs

    LaGs Banned

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    In your blog you say holding a door open for someone might even be the 'cruel' thing to do, and the reason for this is 'the complexity of the human personality which makes reactions unpredictable'...What a load of gobbledygook if you ask me. I think you've been reading far too many psychology books Radrook :p

    Where I'm from it's convention to hold the door for someone coming just behind you, and to do otherwise would simply make you an arsehole. End of.
     
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