How can I create "suspension of disbelief"?

Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by Ryan Elder, Oct 25, 2015.

  1. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I have chatted with him. The version of the story I know does sort of have an internal logic. Personally, I think the story is risky. I think it will be really good if it hits its mark, but I think it has zero margin for error, making a very hard story to tell.

    Though I will applaude him for making the effort to keep such, wierd combanitation of varribles together.

    Though, to help him with context.

    The premise as I last heard it is this.

    The Villian is a delusional man that thinks he found the secret of happiness. being the old hierachy, or the woman takes care of the house and the man takes care of the business mentality.

    He recruited a girl because he managed to convince her that her lack of happiness was due to her trying to do too much, or be a business woman. So she let go of that desire and converted to a woman who thinks that her job is to please a future husband and take care of the home in return for him taking away her worries of work.

    The rape/teasing society is meant to be his way to voice the truth of happiness to the world. Yeah, this part is hard for me to swallow but the villain being crazy makes it slightly easier.

    Though I think context is moot. I think the story creator here needs to grow as a story teller. That will bring him to a point where fixing his story is easy, or easier. In my opinion.
     
  2. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay thanks. He wants to cause fear in society, much like how in real life a lot of serial killers for example want to cause fear and hurt other people. They think it will do good but in won't and they just think it will. He believes he is doing something effective, when in fact he is mistaken.
     
  3. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    What is the function of the fear? To make women obey? How will he make sure that they obey him and not the men that they currently choose?

    If I use sugar in my tea, and you commit acts of terrorism because you want me to use honey instead, there has to be some mechanism to cause the switch to honey. Otherwise, the fear might just drive me to consume more sugar. In this story, fear is likely to cause women to reject more men, not fewer. So what is the mechanism, even in just his mind, that will cause the desired change?
     
  4. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    To put it another way, if he says, "I will do X, which will cause Y, because of Z," what are X, Y and Z?
     
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  5. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    That's part of the plot though is how he his insanity is making him not see the forest for the trees. He is making it worse by making women fear him more, and he is not seeing it.

    I will kidnap, rape and murder (which is X), which will cause fear, and make people see my problem (Y), and it's because I am involuntarily celebant, lonely, and treated as inferior (Z).
     
  6. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But there needs to be some model, like the Bugs figures, that he is imagining. Simply saying, "I want X, and if I do random crazy unrelated things, X will happen!" is unlikely to keep your readers engaged.
     
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  7. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I don't mean Z as his reason for doing it, I mean that it's the link between x and y. Like

    "I want ice cream removed from the earth(x) , so I will paint Bugs in subway tunnels (Y) , because the wind from the trains will cause Bugs to come to life and march against the ice cream shops. (Z)"

    You need a Z.

    ( BTW, I think you mean celibate, not celebant.)
     
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  8. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Yes, I mean celibate. Thanks for the correction.

    When you say that he needs a link and not a reason, what do you mean by 'link' in this context?
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2015
  9. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    You need a Z. There needs to be some connection, however crazy, between his actions and his goals. And there is none. Without the avatar of God thing, would you really have accepted the idea that cartoon graffiti is a way to fight against ice cream?

    How about,

    "Our country should be run for the benefit of apple trees, so I will hook up massive speakers to play Happy Birthday 24 hours a day in all small towns in Akaska."

    "Our schools should eliminate homework, so I will hire planes to illegally fly under suspension bridges."

    "Cats should be on the deeds to their owners' homes, so I will scatter Flanders poppy seed in our nation's rivers."

    Would those plots work for you?
     
  10. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    I think I see what you are saying. You are saying that kidnapping rape and murder, is not how the villain would naturally deal with being involuntarily celibate and being treated as inferior by society and by the opposite gender. Is that right?

    If that's what you are asking, then what would the villain do instead to strike terror into the public in order to make point?
     
  11. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I'm primarily asking how striking terror into the public will help his cause. How will that poppy seed get cats on real estate deeds?
     
  12. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Again, what is the villain's message?

    "Women, every time a man asks for sex, you must provide it."

    "Fathers, teach your daughters that their purpose is to serve all men sexually." (It would have to be fathers, because the mothers would be out there obeying men's demands .)

    "Governments, take away women's right to education and property; we must not distract them from their primary duty by allowing them to make choices."

    What is it ? HOW, exactly, will he ensure that men will be insulated from ever being rejected?
     
  13. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay I see. But most villains think that by creating evil acts, it makes the world a better place. He just has that mentality. I also asked a some people in the psychology field when researching the character, and the premise. They said after suffering for years or decades of involuntary celibacy, that it can cause violent reactions and even lead to violent felonies. So should I not try to write based on what the experienced people in that field said in my research or should I write it so that the villain does not have any evil intentions in response how he is treated by others.
     
  14. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    The villains message is he will stand for being treated as inferior and rejected anymore.
     
  15. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    There's a difference between violent felonies (which I don't buy, but I'll just assume massive childhood abuse or some other thing that broke the villain) and some nebulous "cause ." A cause needs a train of logic.
     
  16. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Specifics. I need specifics. It sounds like he is saying that any woman must obey the sexual demands of himself and of any man that he identifies with.
     
  17. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    If you want a cup of coffee, and you don't mind committing a crime, how do you get it? Do you get it by, say, keying someone's car? Will that make coffee appear? Or will you take some action that is actually related to coffee, like going to a coffee shop and demanding it?

    Your villain is doing the equivalent of keying a car and waiting for the coffee to appear.
     
  18. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Yes this is the message pretty much. What other specifics are needed?
     
  19. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    You previously denied that he was demanding obedience from women. So it sounds like he does want a society where women are essentially property--that is his "cause." He wants to eliminate what he sees as the cruel injustice of women being allowed to refuse sex.
     
  20. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    It's not so much about obedience as it is acceptance. He acts out against those who do not accept him. Perhaps in this case they are the same thing and I thought of the words differently.
     
  21. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I see no difference. He wants to eliminate women's ability to make any choices with regard to sex. That means absolute, unquestioning, slave-like obedience.

    How does he communicate this demand? Does he demand that society and government enforce it, for example with the passage of laws that make a woman's refusal a crime, perhaps one with a prison sentence? How does this work? What would his dystopia look like?
     
  22. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay then yes, it's the same thing. Well he doesn't think that the government would actually pass a law. If the government is not willing to negotiate with terrorists, on a much larger scale, then they are not going to deal with him. So he tries to get women to obey out of fear. He tries to encourage others that are like him to do the same in hopes of creating an uprising.
     
  23. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But in order to make women property rather than citizens, surely he would need the government to be a part of that, eventually. If government treats women as people with rights, his cause won't get far.
     
  24. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Yes the government would be a huge advantage but how does he expect the government to actually give in? My original goal was for him to cause fear in women, so that they may think, "I better not say no to this guy with all the influence in men, from the villain going around". But if he thinks he can crack the government, then how would he in a way that would work?
     
  25. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    There's no way for any part of his plan to work, even a little bit. But delusions of passing laws to convert women into property strike me as having more internal logic than delusions that making men more dangerous will have any effect other than keeping women completely away from men.
     

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