How can I get readers to not become fixated on minor characters?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Ryan Elder, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    The story has to have a grounding in reality if you are writing it as a crime thriller... otherwise you might as well set it on planet zarg in the 23rd century, which would save you a lot of angst about how the legal system works as you can just make it all up

    Also you haven't created suspension of disbelief ... that means creating something plausible as an alternate reality like for example warp drives and inter space beaming in star trek ... we all know its impossible but that doesn't matter for the purposes of the story

    On the latter point you need to decide what the book is about - if its about revenge then the inciting incident needs to happen early (think without remorse by Tom Clancy, or predators by Eric Sauer for example) , if the main plot element is the police investigation of the gang then you don't need the implausible rape element/revenge at all

    Also no one is going to emotionally invested in the MC , because he is basically boring (and non credible) and stupid
     
  2. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Seconded
     
  3. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay thanks. So is a woman trying to trick a cop into that type of situation, unrealistic, especially if the woman is obviously a sadistic psycho?

    I'd say the story is a overall a crime thriller that is not about revenge until the second half. But lots of stories have saved the revenge for the second half. The movie Cell 211, for example, it starts out as a survival thriller, then the MC is about revenge in the second half, once the survival turns to victimization.

    I haven't read Without Remorse or Predators.

    So could I write a story that starts out as a psychological crime thriller, where the MC turns to revenge in the second half, rather than the entire story being about revenge? I just don't the MC needs the entire story to get revenge on the villain.

    Well I could change the story with some of the recommendations on here, but I find some of the recommendations to be contradictory. For example, you say that the gang would not commit a blood in outdoors, and then you are saying they would. Why the sudden change of advice now?
     
  4. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Good luck with that. The giy ignores any of your comments on bad forum behavior. You'll see more threads. Mark me.
     
  5. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Your reading comprehension needs a lot of help

    taking the latter point first i said they wouldn't conduct a blood in of the type you describe where it could easily be observed , later I suggested that what gangs actually do is have their would be members commit crimes on the street, without the complicated and risky set up you have written... this is not contradictory to anyone who can read and comprehend English. ( I also suggested you actually do some research on gangs and gang units but I realise that would be too much like hard work)

    For the hard of thinking what i'm saying is suppose you want to join my gang, but I want to be sure you are an unhinged psychopath first (because that's what I want in a gang member - nothing says reliable like lunacy) , I could kidnap chickenfreak and tie him to a chair and invite you to shoot him in the head ... but that would involve a shitload of risk for me and leave me with a dead body to dispose of. If for some reason I was going to go that route i'd make damn sure there were no other witnesses. But wouldn't it make more sense for me to just tell you "if you want to be in my gang, I want you to murder chickenfreak", and leave the details and risk entirely with you ? ( I should stress for legal reasons that this is a hypothetical example, I am not asking you to actually murder anybody)

    That aside I know you haven't read without remorse or predators (or cop world, homicide, or basically anything anyone has recommended you read) my point is that if you want to write a revenge thriller reading some examples of the genre (that is reading not watching films unless you are writing a screen play) is generally an essential step

    There's no reason not to write a psychological crime thriller with a revenge finale, so long as that psychological thriller is plausible , which your plot isn't ... Its not that a psychopath targeting a cop is inherently unbelievable (although they do generally go after easier prey) , its more that the gang goes through all the initial bollocks with a fake blood in because they don't want the heat of potentially killing a UC, only then for the reader to decide to rape a cop plus how the cop behaves and how easily he is deceived (and the rape element especially , per discussion on other threads) , plus all the complicated and unbelievable legal stuff about unproven cases which isn't really germane.

    The thing about good psychological thrillers is that they are taut , fast paced and crank up the tension to the finale , they aren't a woolly mess riven with unnecessary and unrealistic plots threads , poorly researched detail, and unbelievable motivations

    Also you should be clear that 'suspend disbelief' does not mean throw in a bunch of unbelievable elements and hope the reader is too stupid to notice. If you think about True Blood for example (books or TV) the suspension of disbelief is that vampires and shifters etc exist in society and that this is normal .. what you've written is akin to bill and sookie suddenly transforming into pink fluffy unicorns and flying to the moon for no reason , then return to bontemp to discover that Eric has spontaneously turned into a fascist womble and invited the third reich to take over whilst dressed as uncle bulgaria , and expecting the reader/viewer to be okay with that
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2016
  6. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay thanks. I thought that if a blood in, is left entirely up to the new recruit and the gang doesn't watch, the blood in can be faked. For example, in my research there was a real life case, where the blood in was left up to the new recruit who was an undercover cop. The police faked the targets death, and the gang believed the target was actually dead when he wasn't. So by the gang choosing not to be there, and having to read about it later in the news, they could be easily fooled, if they do not actually see it for themselves, or so I thought when coming up with the fake blood in.

    As for the woman being able to trick the cop, into protecting her so he can be alone with her, so she can kidnap and rape him, if the cop is too easily fooled, is there a way her fooling him can be improved then? Can I build into the same pay off with the cop thinking that a woman in danger needs to be protected and is tricked, without the fake blood in? Cause basically the cop needs to think she is in danger from the gang, and then she gets the gang member off later, and it turns out she was in it the whole time. The new recruit also has his own pay off, which builds into the ending I want.

    But can I have it so that the witness who is in danger and knows too much turns out to be the rapist, without the fake blood in to set it up?
     
  7. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    well the crips and the bloods and some Mexican gangs do it like that for real , so i'd suspect its a damn sight more realistic than what you've written... okay so it could be faked but its not very likely when weighed against the risks entailed in kidnapping a suspect. However if you want to cover that you could have 'bring us an ear' as a criteria of proof (not many UCs will consent to having their ear cut off to fool a gang)

    your whole plot is so flawed its hard to know where to start , but simply put , forget the rape - its balderdash and nothing you've said on any thread shows you having the skills or the knowledge to write it convincingly. Plus there's no credible reason why a gangleader would select a cop in the first place

    That aside if you really must keep the rape, there's no need for her to trick him into protecting her so they can be alone together... just drug his drink (or tazer him on the street)

    God knows what the new recruit's pay off is going to be, but so far your whole plot is a tissue of ill thought out and unbelievable tosh

    Shortly put no , a gang leader would never put herself in the position of being the witness in the first place

    The blood in is unbelieavable
    the Rape is unbelievable
    the female gang leader is unbelievable
    and the cop is unbelieavable

    and the reason for all this unbelievablity is that you haven't done much if any research
     
  8. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    The really frustrating part is that I truly believe he has done a ton of research it's the information processing that seems to be lacking in some fundamental way.

    (assuming he's not a troll. Which I think he is.)
     
  9. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay thanks. You say for the rape that she should drug his drink. But what is he doing with her in the first place? He needs a reason to be in her house. The cop already has a long term steady girlfriend, so he is not going to go over to her house for any romantic reason. So she needs a reason to get him in the house. He is a cop, she can use that to her advantage. So maybe she can make him believe she is in danger. But if she calls 911 and makes it look like people are after her and targeting her. Any cop will be sent to investigate, and she cannot as for the MC specifically.

    I thought that by having the MC already be working on a case that involves her, and already knows the people who he believes may be after her, that this would compel him more, as oppose to her getting a cop to be in her house in a complete, much more random way.

    She is not the leader of the gang though. The leader is another character. She is putting her own rape motives first, and using the gang as a source of danger to lie to the cop and get him into the house. But she is not the leader. She is just a member. She is also not a typical example of what a gang member would do though, since she want to rape a cop as her top priority at this time and is putting the gang second, thinking she can have her cake and eat it too.

    You also said that not many UC's will agree to having their ear cut off, who is the UC in my story that is agreeing to any harm? There was a real story where a blood in recruit had to produce the dead body to the gang to prove that they killed them, which I found in my research. Yes I have done research into blood ins. In real life, the new recruit produced a body for the gang. But the body was a fresh cadiver from the morgue. The same thing can go for an ear. The cops could just get an ear from a John Doe in the morgue, and the UC can use that to give to the gang. So how is a bringing back an ear, proof, when the police can just use a John Doe's ear?
     
  10. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay thanks. You say for the rape that she should drug his drink. But what is he doing with her in the first place? He needs a reason to be in her house. The cop already has a long term steady girlfriend, so he is not going to go over to her house for any romantic reason. So she needs a reason to get him in the house. He is a cop, she can use that to her advantage. So maybe she can make him believe she is in danger. But if she calls 911 and makes it look like people are after her and targeting her. Any cop will be sent to investigate, and she cannot as for the MC specifically.

    I thought that by having the MC already be working on a case that involves her, and already knows the people who he believes may be after her, that this would compel him more, as oppose to her getting a cop to be in her house in a complete, much more random way.

    She is not the leader of the gang though. The leader is another character. She is putting her own rape motives first, and using the gang as a source of danger to lie to the cop and get him into the house. But she is not the leader. She is just a member. She is also not a typical example of what a gang member would do though, since she want to rape a cop as her top priority at this time and is putting the gang second, thinking she can have her cake and eat it too.

    You also said that not many UC's will agree to having their ear cut off, who is the UC in my story that is agreeing to any harm? There was a real story where a blood in recruit had to produce the dead body to the gang to prove that they killed them, which I found in my research. Yes I have done research into blood ins. In real life, the new recruit produced a body for the gang. But the body was a fresh cadiver from the morgue. The same thing can go for an ear. The cops could just get an ear from a John Doe in the morgue, and the UC can use that to give to the gang. So how is bringing back an ear, proof, when the police can just use a John Doe's ear?

    Plus I don't see why I have to make the gang behave just like a real life gang. There have been other works of fiction where the blood in was fake and just a test. So this not anything new. Why is it that I cannot use the fake blood in idea, to weed out a potential undercover cop, when it has been done before in other fiction?
     
  11. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Same difference , if you don't process the info it's not worthwhile research.

    I'm also wondering about his age - his profile says hes in his thirties, but these conversations are reminiscent of talking to a teenager who knows he's wrong but won't admit it, whilst also lacking the ability or confidence to argue their point effectively
     
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  12. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay thanks. I don't mean to come off as stubborn, or not taking the advice, I just find certain holes and contradictions in other people's ideas of what would happen or what my characters would do. I feel that those holes and contradictions should be discussed in order for me to absorb and apply the advice properly to my story. Why is it that the potential holes and contradictions cannot be established in other people's suggestions?
     
  13. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    sit next to him in a bar, slip roofies or GHB into his drink, simples... he doesnt need to be in her house at all (in fact she would be wise not to have any victim in her house.)

    drugs (or other violence) are the only method that makes sense ... hes a cop, and cops by definition are not easily fooled

    you said on the rape thread that shes the leader ... if shes just a member it makes even less sense, is she not scared of the leader and what the gang will do when they discover that she has her own agenda

    Linky ? If you'd done a decent amount of research we wouldn't be having this conversation, because you'd know that blood ins as you've conceived them don't happen much. Also how stupid are the gang that they believe that a fresh cadaver from the morgue is the person that they've just told the UC to kill. If I hand you a 9mm and say "go into that mini mart and shoot the cashier" you don't have time to set anything up.

    For realism - because if you don't readers will point and laugh ... if you don't want your work to be realistic why all these threads ?

    Name three

    The only one i can think of is in "live fire" by Stephen Leather, which is a completely different situation , for a start the gang are in total safety in Thailand where the police are bent , and for another there's been set up of motivation its not just a random blood in
     
  14. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    They can - but you aren't doing that, the impression you give is of a small child with its fingers in its ears going "lalalalala not listening"

    Which is fine, its your story and a free country, if you want to write unbelievable tosh which will put agents and editors into a giggle fit before they toss your manuscript in the reject pile , feel free. But in that case why bother with these threads (unless spencer is right and you are just trolling).

    Look at most other crit threads , note how people respond to advice , and generally don't argue with it (this doesn't necessarily mean they are going to take it , it just means they are adult enough to listen and show gratitude for people taking the time , rather than "okay thanks" reading like a synonym for "fuck off and die" )

    Note how a mature and sensible response makes people want to help , whereas your behaviour has the opposite effect

    also note how many threads most people have started on their Wip - compare this to your 180 plus
     
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  15. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    Hey moose, don't let yourself be baited - though it's interesting in its own right... so thanks for the free information :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2016
  16. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Oh well that was before. I changed my mind on her being the leader now. She is not anymore. But since she succeeds in getting away with the rape, and making it unprovable for the cop, and she also succeeds in getting the gang suspect off the charges for the prosecution not having enough proof, the gang does not come after her. She got him off and raped the cop (which the gang does not know about), so the gang does not come after her since she succeeded and got away with it. Do you think if she was the leader it would make more sense though? Should I make her the leader?

    I don't mean to come off as a child when I say I want to discuss other people's advice. It's just I find there to be contradictions. You said at first that a gang would not be stupid enough to do a blood in outdoors, and then you say that the new recruit should go into a mini mart and shoot the cashier.

    If the cops arrest the man later, the guy is going to cut a deal, and turn on the other gang members, if they leave a fresh murdered body behind, and on camera. I do not get how that is any smarter for the gang for example.

    You also said she should roofie the cop in the bar. However, what is she suppose to do next. Get him out of there, with no one noticing he was roofied? After she rapes him she has to clean up all the evidence and make it his word against hers. So is she suppose to flush the roofie out of his system after, so he cannot use it as evidence? If she has to flush it out, how long will it take? Long enough for the other police to realize he hasn't been answering his phone and gone missing for a few days as she waits for it to flush out?

    I just want to improve the story. That's all. But in order to do that, I need to ascertain and fix the contradictions that I am finding, in some of the examples. That's all.

    As for fiction where the fake blood in has been done before, the movies In the Line of Fire, Season 3, of 24 and season 4 of 24. Basically in mine the motivation of the gang is, is that the gang leader (not the woman, a different character), has been becoming friends with the new recruit. The new recruit doesn't know that his friend is the leader of a gang. But the leader thinks he will make a nice addition. But he has to test him out first, and make sure he is not an undercover cop, who became friends with him in order to get closer. So he has to test him out and wants the test to be fake in case the man is an undercover cop, and does not want him attempting to rescue a real hostage, that can be used against the gang. This is the motive. Should I change it to a different motive?
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2016
  17. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Your reading comprehension again lets you down - I said they would not be stupid enough to do a blood in as you described outdoors, then I said that the new recruits should do the murder on his own... wheres the contradiction in that ?

    And hows he going to cut a deal - he says "they told me to do it" and they say "don't know what your talking about , nothing to do with us" .. its safer for the gang because they are completely uninvolved in the murder


    How does date rape generally work ?

    You also said the cop would be too ashamed to report the rape , so given that hes not reporting it , how does evidence matter ? (point of note you can't flush roofies out of the system, they show up in hair samples for months afterwards)


    Name three books where it happens .. not TV series or films (your major problem appears to be in not understanding the difference)

    Far too complicated - if they want to test him they send him to commit a real crime , simples
     
  18. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Yes, the new recruit cannot prove that the gang he leader knows told him to do it. But if the new recruit is arrested and tells the cops this, two things could happen.

    1. The cops cut a deal with him if he agrees to not tell the gang that he was arrested and agrees to go undercover for them to help bust the gang.
    2. Even if the cops do not get the new recruit to do this, the new recruit has named the leader, and now the cops know who the leader is. The leader doesn't want to put the new recruit in a situation where the cops are going to know who he is. Even if the new recruit was an undercover cop who knew who the leader was, there is still a chance that the cops do not know him as a suspect. So he doesn't want to give the cops the chance of finding out.

    This is the part that was not covered in the given scenario that I do not understand.

    And yes, the cop is ashamed to report the rape. But the rapist doesn't know that. The rapist is going to assume the that the cop will likely report it, and so she has to get rid of the evidence anyway. If she gives the cop evidence to bring in, then the cop will likely report it more, since he has evidence to back him up. Why is the rapist, who planned the rape and put so much effort into tricking the main character, going to give him a drug, that is going show up for months in his system? Why risk that?

    Sure the gang can deny it, but the new recruit still knows WHO THE GANG LEADER IS. The leader doesn't want the police telling them his name. Cause then he will be the suspect in the other kidnapping crimes previously.

    By having a fake blood in, where you can see if the new recruit will commit murder, but no one actually dies, then the police can not charge the new recruit with a crime, and compel him to name the leader as a suspect. You give examples, but you haven't explained how the new recruit will not give up the name of the leader, if he is caught and arrested for murdering in public view.

    Also how is a crook wanting to invite a new friend into a gang, far too complicated? You haven't pointed out the cons to doing a real crime. All you did was point out the pros, but never touched on the cons. Why not?

    Committing a real murder leads to more complications, of covering it up, compared to a test where no real murder has to be committed. You say that a real murder is complicated, but at the same time, you haven't even pointed out any of the complications.

    I'm sorry if I come off as stubborn, but you say the villains are being stupid and doing stupid things, but then you say they should do other things instead, which will make the police more able to arrest them and getting the suspect to rat, and leaving evidence behind such as roofies in the system. I don't see how this is any smarter. I don't say this to come off as stubborn or childish, I just do not see how these solutions are smarter, as there is more evidence for the police to chew on in these suggestions, which are suppose to smarter. You say that the roofie shows up for months, but you didn't bother to explain why she would use it then, if that's the case.

    As for naming book examples, since I am into writing screenplays, I tend to use movies and TV for examples. I am writing a screenplay for a movie. I said it was a screenplay long before in another thread, sorry if I should have been more clear in this one on that. So do I have to use books to compare if it's a screenplay?
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2016
  19. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I GIVE UP

    do what you want ... just don't come crying to us when you've written something completely unsaleable (I'm now putting you on ignore because I am tired of your weak crap )
     
  20. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    I'm sorry I don't mean to come off as stubborn. I just want to talk about the contradictions in the new ideas I have been given. A lot of the ideas I was given before are good and they helped my story. I used them, and I thank everyone for the advice. Thank you, really!

    It's just some of the plot suggestions, I do not understand the contradictions, or potential holes in them, and I just waned to go over them. But when I point them out, do I offend the people who give the suggestions?
     
  21. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    People's suggestions are not sufficient to fix your plot because your plot doesn't make sense. No part of your plot makes sense. None of it. NONE OF IT. So when people look at your plot and try to fix it, each of them is likely to choose the first impossible part that happens to attract their attention. But because there are so very, very many impossible parts. their fixes are not likely to mesh.

    Imagine that Fred goes to all his friends and says, "Look! I built my own car engine! But I can't seem to get it to run my car. Can you help me?"

    And he shows them the thing that he built out of shortbread cookies, chocolate bars, gingerbread, Fritos, and kale.

    And his friends keep saying, "You can't build an engine out of snack food."

    And he keeps saying, "But what's SPECIFICALLY wrong with it? How can I make it better if you won't explain?"

    And Jane says, "Well, for one thing, those gears appear to be carved from shortbread cookies. Gears are usually made from metal. Or sometimes ceramic."

    And Andrew says, "Well, for one thing, you've got gears where you should have pistons."

    And Wilbur says, "Well, for one thing, that thing that looks like it's supposed to be a gas tank looks like it's full of Fritos. Fritos aren't fuel."

    And Fred says, exasperated, "You're all telling me diferent things! Some people tell me that my gears need to be made of metal, and some people are telling me that I shouldn't have gears at all! And somebody said that I can't use Fritos for fuel, but I read that farmers are growing corn to make into ethanol to fuel cars. Fritos are corn, so what's the problem?"

    ----

    If Fred makes his gears out of metal instead of shortbread, that won't help because a gas engine uses pistons. If Fred replaces the gears with pistons, that won't help because neither the Otto cycle or the Diesel cycle can use Fritos as fuel. If Fred replaces the Fritos with gasoline, that won't help because the gas tank made from melted and cooled chocolate bars held together with leaves of kale can't hold gasoline. In general, none of these little tricks will work because YOU CAN'T MAKE AN ENGINE OUT OF SNACK FOODS!

    And because Fred doesn't understand engines. He just doesn't. Fred should not be trying to build an engine. Fred should be trying to build something that he understands, like maybe a birdhouse.

    The details of your blood-in don't make sense. If you fix that, that won't help because the motivation for your blood-in doesn't make sense. If you fix that, that won't help, because your gang doesn't make sense. If you fix that, that won't help, because your main character doesn't make sense. In general, none of these little tricks will work because YOU CAN'T MAKE A CRIME THRILLER OUT OF ILLOGIC!

    You don't understand any of the elements of a crime thriller. You should not be trying to build a crime thriller. You should be trying to build something that you understand. If you're in high school, you should be writing something that includes high school experiences that are completely within your understanding and experience. If you're in college, you could use your college experience. If you have a job and an apartment, you could use those experiences.

    Ryan, for some reason, you are not able to make use of research. You're just not. I don't know why not. I don't know if you might, someday, be able to do so. But right now YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO DO IT.

    So abandon research and write something that is completely and totally within your personal experience.
     
  22. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay thanks. I don't want to write about anything I know personally. I live a boring not very interesting life, but it's also full of cliches. Everyone I know has cliched jobs, and cliched stories. Nothing really compelling has happened to me personally that I think I could write about. So I thought it would be best to go outside my zone.
     
  23. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    You can get books on detective work, police procedure, etc written for writers.
     
  24. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    You don't understand the things outside your zone. I don't know why research is not possible for you, but it is clear that it is indeed not possible.
     
  25. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Well I guess some of my ideas, have not happened in real life. So there is no place to research things that have not happened, cause I came up with it. But because it has not happened, does mean it cannot be applicable to fiction? Does every idea in fiction, have to be based off real cases where it actually did happen?
     

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